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 Are Wych Cult lists dead?

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End Game
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 01:17

Post merged with previous comment - Count Adhemar
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 01:18

? Okay so your going to place 100 points worth of farseer in your list and waste their warp charges on wyches?
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 01:25

70 pts for an autarch and +5pts for its banshee mask sounds good.

and 100pts for a farseer in general, not just so it can do this or that. having a farseer in an army is good.

should they just be to buff wyches? naw. but definitly worth 100pts.


Last edited by End Game on Fri Jan 20 2017, 01:31; edited 1 time in total
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 01:26

Is your farseer on foot? You can't start in the raider.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 01:50

lol, since this is typically hypothetical anyway. why not. I forgot about that faq eh.

usually i stick the bugger on a bike and slap him in with a squad of reavers along with an autarch in a banshee mask..

I have been toying with the idea of massive footslogging eldar armies for the lulz, but the absense of a raider only nets you 5 guys points wise anyway.

logically you could just slap him in the thing on turn one anyway (9 wyches).

actually can i get linked to the faq abotu this? starting the game in a non dedicated transport plz? I mean its all over the place (and i completely agree that 5 wraithguard in a raider is nasty)

according to miniwargaming.com

'They can be deployed embarked in a non-dedicated transport. The confusion may come from the fact a unit may not deploy in a transport that was bought as a dedicated transport for a different unit.'

and then

'Any unit can start inside of a transport taken as its own selection in your roster.
If a transport was taken as a dedicated transport in your roster, then only the unit it was purchased for may begin the game inside of it. This is a limitation, not a permission. The permission for units to begin the game inside of transports can be found on page 132 in the third paragraph under "deployment". It says "Models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone". Notice this says "Transport Vehicles", and not just "Dedicated Transports".

Also on page 171 in the "Scout" special rule, last sentence of the 2nd paragraph: "A unit cannot embark or disembark as part of a Scout redeployment".'


http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113340
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 01:59

Could we avoid double (or triple) posts please? Use the Edit function. Thanks - Count Adhemar
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Hastyr
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 08:27

If you're talking about starting the farseer in the raider it would be this ruling foiling you:

Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.

Pg 12, www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/40K_The_Rules_v1.1_Dec16.pdf
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 08:37

This is accurate. It's also on the rules page of the GW site proper. Official FAQ trumps all unfortunately. I'd be deepstriking d-scythe raiders every game otherwise.

Now I will contend that this interpretation of RAW relies on a very common conclusion that your playgroup. If your playgroup interprets the "For all rules purposes" clause of the IC rules to mean that they retain their faction and that the combined unit has both factions, the more or less norm, then you're barred. But the interpretation that holds that the IC loses their faction would allow it.

Furthermore all of your explanation validates why they should be with reavers instead. Rending HoW, HNR, and t4 > 4++ even at a 6 point per wound premium.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 11:28

I think that taking wyches as primary assault unit and/or bodies for your killer character is a mistake in recognition of what they are actually for. You want wyches in combat against small, expensive units with either devastating slow weapons or expensive ranged weapons with bad overwatch (heavy weapons) and low-number-of-attacks CC potential. (some Thunderhammers, Fists, Power Weapons, Chainfists, some Dreadnoughts if they have HWG, some Bikers, Devastators, Obliterators, some 3+ MCs).
Simply put - wyches do not care about high power weapons with their 4++. BUT! You have to calculate with the possibility that they will lose the combat. Fearless character is nice with them. No Overwatch is ofc nice with them as overwatch counts toward the combat result. But choosing the right target is imperative. 10 of them in T2 charge does 2-3 wounds to MEQ and 1 wound to TEQ. So TEQ unit needs softening to say 3 or 2 models, MEQ if you take AP3 weapon on champ will get assault.
That said - with your killer character you want to charge perhaps other units. You want higher majority toughness (Grots) or more killiness (Incubi). Wyches do not want or need a character. They need support.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 11:54

Yeah I did think that the ideal opponents for Wyches are Wraithblades. Low number of high strength attacks that relies on toughness for resilience (which can be countered slightly with Hydra Gauntlets).

The losing combat is an issue though. How much of a problem would that be with high I to avoid getting swept?

What about units of 5 in Venoms, one with Hydra Gauntlets? Cheap enough that if they get swept it's not so much of a problem, but enough to tie up heavy weapon squads and stop them shooting. If you need them to do actual killing, just gang up 2-3 units of 5 on the single squad.

Not as competitive as other options, but would be a use for them...

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 12:13

No gauntlets. Champion, HWG, Agoni is much better investment than gauntlets. Units of 5 are just deliveries for champ so they need to pick targets accordingly. Units of 5 are in fact better as... I will get stoned for this... Bloodbrides... coz why? coz for 15 more points, you get +1 attack with the Agonizer and +4 normal attacks from wyches. But its elite slot so its a bummer.

Wraithblades....mmmm no. I dont think so. 5 wyches with AgoniChamp would kill... 1-2 of them and get 6-8 attacks back and probably lose combat. Bloodbrides could make it into the win. I would hop Dark Reapers instead.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 12:23

@aurynn wrote:
Units of 5 are in fact better as... I will get stoned for this... Bloodbrides...

I think you're already stoned mate! Very Happy

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 12:28

Well the fact remains that for the likes of Wraithblades, Wyches dont quite cut it and Bloodbrides kinda do... :-D. Wraiths are fearless so you need the extra Agoni attack to finish them through 2-3 phases or they will finish the wyches first... And 15 points with extra 4 normal ones it just swings the scales. :-D And since my 105pt unit can grind down a 150pts unit somewhat reliably, I'd say its a good, good trade.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 12:37

Good Lord you might just be right about Bloodbrides. Enough to try them out at least. Not necessarily competitive, but worth a punt...

Saying that, how often do people come up against Wraithblades?

As for the elites slot I'm not certain how much of a problem that is. Grotesques are better in a Grotesquerie, Mandrakes have utility but aren't an auto-take (same with Incubi) and the job of Blasterborn could be filled by scattering Blasters through your standard Kabalites...

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 12:41

@Ynneadwraith wrote:
Saying that, how often do people come up against Wraithblades?

I thought much the same. Never actually seen them on the tabletop.

Quote :
As for the elites slot I'm not certain how much of a problem that is. Grotesques are better in a Grotesquerie, Mandrakes have utility but aren't an auto-take (same with Incubi) and the job of Blasterborn could be filled by scattering Blasters through your standard Kabalites...

I dislike putting Blasters in Kabalite squads. You're pretty much always wasting some of the unit's firepower by having weapons with very different roles firing at the same target. Plus, I look at Blasterborn then I look at Aspect Host Fire Dragons and then I go and cry in a darkened room.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 12:54

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Ynneadwraith wrote:
Saying that, how often do people come up against Wraithblades?

I thought much the same. Never actually seen them on the tabletop.
I see Wraithaxes occasionally.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Quote :
As for the elites slot I'm not certain how much of a problem that is. Grotesques are better in a Grotesquerie, Mandrakes have utility but aren't an auto-take (same with Incubi) and the job of Blasterborn could be filled by scattering Blasters through your standard Kabalites...

I dislike putting Blasters in Kabalite squads. You're pretty much always wasting some of the unit's firepower by having weapons with very different roles firing at the same target. Plus, I look at Blasterborn then I look at Aspect Host Fire Dragons and then I go and cry in a darkened room.
I agree. I dont put blasters in Kabalites for the very same reason.
As for Fire Dragons - I look at them and cry a little and then I remember that my Blasterborn can take a DSing cheap transport and I am OK again. Srsly DSing Blasterborn are sooo good. :-D I never felt the need for Fire Dragons.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 13:00

We obviously have very different experiences with Blasterborn. If I somehow manage to DS in behind a vehicle I generally take 1 or 2 HP off it and that's about it Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 13:08

Yeah the Aspect Host +1BS is a really powerful boon for such an easy to include formation.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 13:11

@Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah the Aspect Host +1BS is a really powerful boon for such an easy to include formation.

Yeah you've just got to accept the massive handicap of 2 tax units of, say, Warp Spiders or Swooping Hawks. I mean, how the hell does anyone use those? Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 13:25

I mean if you really want to hamstring yourself you could go with 2 squads of Reapers with their 48" S8 AP3 starswarm launchers...or Shining Spears with their S6 AP3 Laser Lances...

However will they cope Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 14:22

True. I they usually make things go "Boom" and their Venom makes some other unit go "Aaaargh" and I then go like "Mwahahaha" and my enemy goes "Whuuuuat?" and then I pull out a bowl to catch his tears. :-D And then he turns and spends 2 units' shootin' to kill the Blasterborn and some more to kill the Venom. Mwa-ha-ha. Love them srsly.

But HL Scourges are bettah in the boomin-mwahahin-drinkin... :-)
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 16:40

I know her points cost is High but I believe what she brings to the table is huge. Taking the Banshee character Jain Zar in a combat unit could be devastating. At least on paper. Denying overwatch vs her unit and giveing all enemy units within 6" -5 WS and I....that seems insanely strong. I think she would make a fantastic leader for a wych squad.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Wych Cult lists dead?   Fri Jan 20 2017, 16:55

@Hastyr wrote:
If you're talking about starting the farseer in the raider it would be this ruling foiling you:

Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.

Pg 12, www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/40K_The_Rules_v1.1_Dec16.pdf

Thank you sir, exactly what i was looking for Smile
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