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 Trouble with IG/AM template armies

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doriii
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PostSubject: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Sun Jan 08 2017, 10:39

I got a friend that i like to play competetively with, he's a good player so a good practice as well.

I just played a game where he brought the following in a 1250 single cad list

2 command units with melta/flamer in chymeras with multilaser and i think bolter or flamer hull mounted
2 10 man Bs4 guard with 3 grenade launchers and autocannon
1 3 man armoured sentinels with multi laser each
2 hellhounds with torrent flamer and heavy bolter
2 hydras with 2 skyfire autocannons
2 hydras with 8 rerollable shred small blast templates

i brought
tooled archon with incubi in venom
2x5  kabs with blaster hw grenade in a DL raider
2x5 wyches with hw grenade agonizer in DC venom
2x6 reaver with 2 cluster caltrops
5 hw blaster scourge


my list might not be optimal, im just sick of playing 10 venom or 15 raider 3 ravager lists

the batteries are mostly hidden with hellhounds nearby. if i shoot at the regular guard he has 3+cover and 2+ if he goes to ground wich in the next turn is just commanded to stop being go to ground

so how do you deal with these kinds of lists.  Im mainly talking tactics wise with a dab of list building
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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Sun Jan 08 2017, 19:30

I think you need to prioritise those targets, first. My gut says: "Kill the ignores cover stuff!"

Priority one targets:
The re-rollable shred hydras sound like "Wyverns" and those blasts are S4 (phew!) but ignores cover (aargh!).

The Hellhounds- I hate these. Hate them.

The Command units: these will also be throwing out orders to ignore cover.

Tactics:- I hope you have access to LOS obscuring terrain. I would consider reserving the reavers, if you don't get first turn (until FNP is up) if they cannot be completely obscured. The scourge are a once and done unit so spraying them from Deep Strike seems like an OK choice. If I was playing as guard, I'd probably want to remove them first.

From there you could go hyper aggressive:
Boost units to surround a chosen flank so that the templates from torrent flamers and blasts can't be placed without touching the other guard units. That appears to be the "Lawrence" move based on his batrep from "No Retreat." 5 tanks dead on T2, thanks to Cluster Caltrop Reavers.

Plink away from range and then close in for the kill: Hope that the Kabalites and scourge do work and hopefully turbo-boost in on a turn when they have removed some of those priority one threats. Am I reading this right? His veterans are NOT in Chimeras?

You've got a great classic feel to this list. The key is matching your list choices with an appropriate target: RJBs can have a crack at anything, Wyches could do work on infantry and, with support, the sentinels if you fancy your 4+ invulnerable dodges, etc.

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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Sun Jan 08 2017, 20:24

thanks for the reply!

well we have a shared opinion of the hell hound Evil or Very Mad he always takes dozer blades, that thing has a crazy reach, 12" move +12" range then the 8" template that instagibbs all. no escape rule is also a pain.

in our game i opted to reserve both wyches, one rjb and the scourge. that led to me feeding him small portions of my army at a time that ended in me getting tabled by turn 5.

my archon and incubi took out both veterans one chimera and the warlord unit with the archons soul trap blazing at S6 he went in on the back of a hellhound leaving it at 1hp. said hellhound turned around next round and bbq'd him for the win. epic game though, its the highest my soultrap has reached ever

next time ill try the lawrence way Smile
swarm the hellhounds and wyverns. thats still kind of all or nothing move. the wyverns take out everything they point at through sheer numbers even at S4

might nees to incorporate some ravagers to blow out stuff at range before getting stuck in
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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Mon Jan 09 2017, 07:53

Yeah man, target redundancy is key, swamping an aspect of his force in one go! Drip feeding is harsh. It would be really cool if Archon's could manipulate reserve rolls like Autarchs. Have you tried the Purge Coterie? Preferred Enemy could get conferred on to most of those units in your list.

Given that the AP on the Hellhound is 4, Incubi could get stuck amongst that and punch it out. Does this IG player like to move around or is he a sit and wait type that likes to counter attack?

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Mon Jan 09 2017, 11:54

Lol, looks like the Guard had more MSU than you did! He brought a Anti-DE list there, that was just plain brutal for us to counter. The only thing I can think of to help would be your own templates (to deal with his cover saves).

I am surprised that your 200+ pt archon made it into combat with 2 HP and a 5++ protecting him. Glad to see the Incubi pulling their weight!
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Mon Jan 09 2017, 19:09

@DEfan wrote:
Yeah man, target redundancy is key, swamping an aspect of his force in one go! Drip feeding is harsh. It would be really cool if Archon's could manipulate reserve rolls like Autarchs. Have you tried the Purge Coterie? Preferred Enemy could get conferred on to most of those units in your list.

Given that the AP on the Hellhound is 4, Incubi could get stuck amongst that and punch it out. Does this IG player like to move around or is he a sit and wait type that likes to counter attack?

i havent tried the purge coterie yet and i dont know if i will. the archon has to be outside his transport to convey the preferred enemy onto targets. and my ocd only lets me have identical squads if i have more than one, easier to keep track of whats what Very Happy

well he can be mobile if the mission demands it, hes really not afraid to push every model out if it helps vs objectives or to put the enemy in a bad position.

what templates do you see working?
i think the liquifier and voidraven is out.  razorwing and medusas might do it but they are kind of expensive to bring. cc ignores cover and when we get into combat with ig its amazing how whole squads can disappear to sweeping advance Smile
yeah it was cool to see the archon + bodyguard make it into combat, it was a sneak behind a couple of buildings and they were in at turn 2
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Tue Jan 10 2017, 07:12

It looks like he's tailoring vs DE and doing a really good job of it.

Respond in kind, shove a CTC down his throat!
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Tue Jan 10 2017, 08:34

Well given all the templates, I wouldnt consider assaulting anything save Incubi or Talos without a tank. And you dont really need assault heavy hitters, so I wouldnt spend points on them as they are overkill.

As others said - if he tailors, tailor too. Reavers are great, but probably not the best against templates. Deny his alpha strike. If you go second, deploy kabalites and their transport only - each hidden at different places, or something tough like 1 Talos out of sight and out of his reach and let your stuff come in and Alpha him. With those autocannons pointed skywards I wouldnt go for a flyer. CTC is a good suggestion, Grotesquerie too.

I would try something along the line of:
Archon, SF (goes tanking for Wyches)
Court - 2x Medusae, Raider w. Lance (Reserve for Alpha)
2x Blasterborn in Raider (Reserve for Alpha)
9x Kabalites + Sybarite with HWG, Raider w. Lance (deploy everytime, block LOS, annoy and pressure, throw HWG, assaut w. HWG)
8x Wyches + Hekatrix w. HWG, Raider w. Lance (Reserve if going second, pressure if first)
5x Scourges w. Heat Lances (Reserve for Alpha)
2x Lance Ravager (Reserve if going second)
--------------------
Total 1248
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Tue Jan 10 2017, 17:05

As there are not many heavy weapon, a grotesquerie should perform well. I would be tempted by a dark artisan, but his army is very mobile and if he's a veteran player, he'll just run away from it.
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Tue Jan 10 2017, 17:36

Am I understanding correctly that he turtled up with that list and made you come to him? Throw a Corpsethief Claw right down his list-tailoring throat.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Tue Jan 10 2017, 19:10

After some thought, I will agree with dumpeal that the Dark Artesian is probably the way to go. Half the cost of the CTC, but almost as survivable. You can give the haemi the liquifier gun (since you are targetting T3 5+ models anyway) for the double flame goodness on the drop.

He will have a real hard time removing the DA from his backfield, especially if you surround him with your fast raiders/venoms so he cant run away. T7 3+ 4+++ is next to unkillable with autocannons/multilazers
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Tue Jan 10 2017, 22:21

It's been mentioned already but your friend has tailored to fight DE. All those Wyvern and Flamers....tut tut tut.

So we'll show him.

I like the recommendation of the DA. You could Webway it or walk it up. No Lascannons so he's gonna be grinding to remove the unit. Just run it standard (or with webway) I wouldn't pUT anymore points into it.

Rest of the army? Reavers with Caltrops, Venoms with Haywire and Blaster Warriors for removing the mech. 100pts gets you a Beastmaster with 3 Clawed Fiends. This unit will tear up rear armour AV10 and whilst not being immune to the hellhounds, they are multi wound so still stand a chance - and can take the heat off (no pun intended) the Reavers and Venoms. Or a Ravager for ranged antimech but whatever your method those hellhounds need to die first


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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Wed Jan 11 2017, 00:44

nice suggestions Very Happy

he spread out from edge to edge almost in hammer/anvil setup, with hellhounds on each edge. wyverns/hydras behind middle cover amd sentinels chimeras and veterans next to each other out in the open except veterans in ruins.

first round, chimeras moves 12" forward with sentinels and one hellhound close by. then he put those in P for the rest of the game. the other hellhound i kited/he was on the other edge and never got to kill anything.

im liking the idea of a dark artisan wwp-ing in but its almost 400pts so 1/4 of the points and might not be in play until round 4 Sad
he has a few meltas in his chimeras so they could make short work of them walking up the table

am i getting the target priority?
1. hellhounds
2. hellhounds
3. wyverns
4. chimeras+command squad
5. hydras

Laughing

have you ever got cought up in those wyvern blasts? it feels like it doesnt matter what they target, its always 20 hits and autodeath Sad

ALSO he had 1 psyker in each of the chimeras with psychic scream. i guess he was expecting a coven formation Rolling Eyes
he dont like CTC
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End Game
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Wed Jan 11 2017, 06:23

I know it's not your setup, but have you tried spamming grotesques in raiders against his list? could be why he dislikes covens lol.

four raiders with 3 grotesques only sets you back about 640.
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Wed Jan 11 2017, 07:49

@End Game wrote:
I know it's not your setup, but have you tried spamming grotesques in raiders against his list? could be why he dislikes covens lol.

four raiders with 3 grotesques only sets you back about 640.

i have tried the grotesquerie with 4 guys in a raider in my tac lists. they can smash things up pretty badly. thing is they need a babysitter. even though they're fearless t2, you gotta watch out for psychic scream. the only other thing they are afraid of is S10, somehow that tends to be somewhere on the table as well. that would change my target priority up to making psykers and s10 go down first.
clocks in at just under 500 with raiders and scissorhand for haemy.

what should I remove from the list to fit it? and is it worth it having to change up target priorities? if i dont focus on one or the other, parts of my army are vulnerable in the mean time
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End Game
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Wed Jan 11 2017, 08:06

dropping wyches nets you about 270 points.
incubi might be better as kabalite trueborn or even 2-3 slyth so that your archon has better than t3 for about the same points cost as 4 incubi?
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End Game
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Wed Jan 11 2017, 08:19

oh and splitting your reavers up into four groups of three so that you dont go splat after every shot might help.

the more targets that ig has to deal with the better you will do, late game they start to be more effective. not for killing, but for objectives.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Wed Jan 11 2017, 10:56

Incubi are overkill. Wyches/brides for numbers, sslyth for toughness if you expect the archon heading template-way.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Wed Jan 11 2017, 13:03

Against this list, your reavers will never perform well. You should just remove them. Too many templates and ignore cover weapons.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Wed Jan 11 2017, 13:11

Well they can serve as a bait target, or go purely tank hunt/kamikaze duty. T2 heatlances and 2d6 S6 hits on rear armour. Clever positioning required though.
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End Game
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Wed Jan 11 2017, 16:37

Too many templates and ignores cover.
-agreed

192 points reclaimed 'yay'.

how about a cast of 10 players all players armed with blast pistols, deathjester (named) and a shadowseer can provide you with shrouded, (which again 'yay' ignores cover...)

if you want numbers why not try out beastmaster packs? khymerae cost the same as wyches, and should do slightly better vs blast templates. (5+invulnerable sv).

I would suggest razorwing flocks, but you know blast templates and all that.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Wed Jan 11 2017, 17:47

I would try something like this:

CAD

Lhamaean, venom SC 75

5 kab, venom, SC 105
5 kab on foot (no more points) 40 (would try to reach a near objective with them)

talos, haywire 130
talos, haywire 130

Dark artisan
haemy WWP 105
cronos, spirit probe 125
talos, heat lance 125


Grotesquerie
haemy 70
3 grots, raider DL, Aethersail 170
3 grots, raider DL, Aethersail 170

1245 pts

With his army, there is no way he'll be able to table you and you have enough presence to control the field as you advance.
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Trouble with IG/AM template armies   Wed Jan 11 2017, 19:27

if i want to make a coven army ill try that out, sounds like it can take some punishment Laughing
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