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End Game
Hellion
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Join date : 2017-01-05

PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 09 2017, 07:41

well, you can always combine up for the -5 ld bubble shenanigans with your harlies and d.eldar.

armour of misery + mask of secrets + haemy -1ld bubble.
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fisheyes
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 09 2017, 12:13

Ill add to this by stating our best formations:
-CAD (for the ObSec troops/transports)
-RSR (for the extra FA slots, only use if you NEED the FA slots. You are better off with dual CAD most of the time)
-Grotesquery (Adds increased strength/toughness with chart, but mostly for the Fearless PFP table)
-DA (lets you DS some MCs into the enemy backfield, a winner vs MEQ armes who lack grav)

Most other things are Meh to Bad.

A unit that has been overlooked is the Archons Court. The Court has great damage output with the Medusae flamer template, and the Sslyth are great at T5 and put out a lot of attacks on the charge. The Lhamean is LD 9 (high for our army), costs 10 pts (to unlock the Venom), and puts out a lot of 2+ poison attacks on a charge (but is armored in cardboard). A great unit that I am still learning how to play.
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mattblowers
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 09 2017, 12:39

Thanks all. Great suggestions. I have 2 more talos/chronos coming so I can run DA or CorpseThiefClaw. At first glance I think that HS slot of 3 talos and DA is better than CTC + DA. That just seems like too many points to sink in something that has too many hard counters.
I also ordered 2 llamean and 15 more reavers so I can get this army going. HQs for 10 points? That seems too good to be true!
What about the razorwing with the S:7 shred missiles? With Eldar allies throwing prescience and perfect timing on that for the turn you will unload on deathstar seems like it could be a real hard counter to Ravenwing and other deathstar armies. Even Daemopns with flesh hounds could take some real damage if you manage to get 4 TL ignores cover large blasts S:7 with shred shots. That could really change a game. Has anyone tried that? Deathstars appear to be a weakness of this army.
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 09 2017, 12:44

Personally I feel the Razorwing's missiles are generally over-rated. Yes, you could potentially score a large number of hits and wounds but none of the large blasts have a decent AP or Ignore Cover so the actual casualties will usually be very light except in a situation where you have large numbers of infantry in the open with poor armour (eg Orks, Tyranids etc), a situation in which DE don't really need any help due to the massive amount of poison we bring.

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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 09 2017, 12:56

Count: you have more experience with DE than I do, so you are probably right. Eldar could allow you to TL and Ignores Cover, but you really are betting a lot on a ton of variables, doesn't happen too often. Coming from Tyranids, I'm really not that worried about AP, if you get it, it's a bonus. Force enough saves and AP doesn't matter as the Hive Tyrants show.

A few things that I've been contemplating while I build this army:

1. How to deal with deathstars: I don't have a good answer.
2. How to deal with hordes: lots of small bodies that just flood the field seem to be a problem . Orks and guard just destroy me when I play Harlequins, DE looks like it could be more of the same.
3. Turn 1 charges: with GSC and now CSM getting reliable turn 1 charges (turn 2 all but guaranteed) learning to stay out of harms way looks like a big obstacle.
4. ITC scoring format. I've always hated that you don't score until the top of your next turn for ITC.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 09 2017, 16:33

Unfortunately we dont really have a good counter to Deathstar. The closest we come is "MOAR MSU!!11!!1!", which you have already seen many times in this thread.

2 - Hordes shouldent be too tough to deal with, since we generally take at least 4 venoms (48 shouts at 36" before they make it into range of our rapid fire guns). Grotesques also make short work (due to Rampage), and if they are not fearless should get cut down. Alternately you can go Razorwing Jetfighter or Medusae for some template goodness

3 - If you are taking the MSU Venom strategy to heart, than you should be fine. The tactic appears to be (I have yet to face this on my own TBH) is to disembark all troops to use as bubblewrap. Who cares if they charge a 40 pt warrior squad? We get to counter-charge with a LOT better units!

4 - Cant help you there, but I assume MSU will once again save the day by sitting 2 vehicles (filled with troops ) onto an objective.

As you can probably tell, I love my Venoms Wink Generally 25% are left alive at the end of a game, but they are the MVP most games.
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End Game
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 09 2017, 17:27

deathstar counter- 10 invisible clowns in a raider with neural disruptors sound fair? cause they got the powah!

-5 LD + deathjester?

anyway these are just ideas.


Last edited by End Game on Mon Jan 09 2017, 18:30; edited 1 time in total
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 09 2017, 18:17

@mattblowers wrote:
Thanks all. Great suggestions. I have 2 more talos/chronos coming so I can run DA or CorpseThiefClaw. At first glance I think that HS slot of 3 talos and DA is better than CTC + DA. That just seems like too many points to sink in something that has too many hard counters.
I also ordered 2 llamean and 15 more reavers so I can get this army going. HQs for 10 points? That seems too good to be true!
What about the razorwing with the S:7 shred missiles? With Eldar allies throwing prescience and perfect timing on that for the turn you will unload on deathstar seems like it could be a real hard counter to Ravenwing and other deathstar armies. Even Daemopns with flesh hounds could take some real damage if you manage to get 4 TL ignores cover large blasts S:7 with shred shots. That could really change a game.  Has anyone tried that? Deathstars appear to be a weakness of this army.

I use razorwing jetfighters and like them but I wouldn't invest too much in them (though I always pay the 10 points for the splinter cannon), they have 2 really good missile options at no additional points. If the shatter missiles where str 8 it would be a different story but at str 7 it doesn't do enough more than str 6 to justify the extra expense. My favorite is necrotoxin because it can scatter into my raiders and I don't need to worry about it since it can't hurt them. Also they don't work well against death stars as others have pointed out, they are most useful for taking out objective holders like tactical marines, pink horrors, cultist etc.
I normally run 2, I don't think they are good enough to spam and/or be your only answer for troops but be very efficient when they get the right targets, very similar to grots.

Though my plan for death stars is just damage control, I try to make it to screen them with warriors hopefully preventing multi charges.

Fish eyes has mentioned the court with the power of the medusae a few times on this forum, a unit that I hadn't paid much attention to before, but it is really powerful for killing marines and eldar jetbikes.

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End Game
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 09 2017, 20:02

doesn't open topped mean that the template weapon should affect every model inside regarless while leaving the ugly boat alone?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 09 2017, 20:28

No. Reread the rules for no escape. The hit on the vehicle itself still happens.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 09 2017, 20:35

@End Game wrote:
doesn't open topped mean that the template weapon should affect every model inside regarless while leaving the ugly boat alone?

Blasts and large blasts aren't affected by the no escape rule, only template weapons. But otherwise you are correct.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 09 2017, 20:36

They explicitly said template weapons. Neither blast nor large blast are "templates" they are markers.
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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Need some basics   Mon Jan 23 2017, 13:40

For the question about dealing with deathstars, it's all about movement blocking. Early turns of the game I use mandrakes to block wolf/bikestars then start hopping out bare-bones warrior squads from venoms. We have so much speed it's easy to stall them for several turns as they approach you and then turboboost or flat-out to safety when you get back against the wall.

It's also always worth a try to bait an opponent into a bad direction. I often send a venom or some bikes back behind or off to the side of the deathstar in the second turn and make it a reasonable charge to make. Several games I've had them take the bait and put themselves against the edge of a table so that it will be several turns before they can get to something else. Other times it causes them to split a character or two off which can be just as good because it lets you start whittling away at characters that don't have full buffs.
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