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 Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?

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Wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Fri Jan 06 2017, 03:40

Hello, my fellow true kin! After listening to a few episodes of the podcast, I finally decided to join the forum. I look forward to plotting against and overpowering good company and conversation.

So for my first post, I thought I'd toss out a question that I've had difficulty finding answers for elsewhere: Why don't we see more lhameans and forgeworld reapers on the table?

The reaper I sort of kind of understand. They're a forgeworld model that doesn't appear in the main codex meaning most people have never even heard of them. But how do their rules stack up? At a glance, it seems like they give us some much-needed anti-tank on a mobile platform that can also give us a little anti-horde power in a pinch. With the nerfs to ravagers, I'd think many former ravager fans might turn an eye to these beauties. Sure, their average damage output doesn't match that of some blasterborn or haywire scourges, but it also has much greater reach and (situationally) better durability compared to the latter.

Lhameans surprise me. I know a lot of people just use them to avoid paying an "HQ tax," but they strike me as a genuinely solid option. While they lack a grotesque's durability, they hit nearly as hard at a third of the price, and they don't require IC babysitters. If you're taking an archon, then they don't compete for slots, and if you're not taking an archon, then you probably have a slot available. Plus they have fleet and actually have an easier time wounding high toughness models than grotesques do! I know that people often find room for grotesqueries in their lists, so why is no one finding room for these hidden gems? I've been using them in large squads lately, and I've been pretty pleased with how much damage they can put out for their price tag.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Fri Jan 06 2017, 04:54

I think you have the Reaper reason sorted out. They are OK, but not inspiring options, and are a bit harder to get hold of that other options.

Most here will disregard Incubi and Wyches because they are too squishy, and they are more resilient than Lhamaeans. However, the math does agree with you that Lhamaeans are a nicely points efficient option. Their issue is they are just so much easier to lose than Grotesques. If you really like them, my suggestion is a mixed unit of Sslyth and Lhamaeans. Provided you can maintain majority Sslyth, you get the efficiency of Lhamaeans and the toughness of the Sslyth combined.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Fri Jan 06 2017, 05:05

I have 2 forgeworld reapers I bought when I bought out a friend's dark eldar. They're ok. When they hit, they're very solid. But the problem is, firing them at a vehicle is an all or nothing proposition. They get D3 haywire hits plus a S7 hit if they actually hit, but you only get a single to hit roll for all of it, so if you miss once, that's it.

A ravager, on the other hand, gets 3 to hit rolls, most likely hitting 2 and almost always getting at least 1 glance.

So there are upsides and downsides to both. When you pair that with them being forgeworld, and therefore difficult/expensive to obtain, people don't have a significant enough incentive to get them instead of cheaper, easier to obtain models.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Fri Jan 06 2017, 11:36

The Reaper is a FW model, and as such has a bit of stigma associated with it. It also doesnt perform as well as most FW models to on the table-top, so its just a pass for me.

As for the Lhameans, you are correct about their damage output. I did an analysis of the DE assault troops about 6 months back, and the Lhamean was routinely at the top of lists. However, my army is currently lacking in survivability, not damage output, so the Lhamean doesnt help much. Eventually I would love to get a squad of 10 in a raider to surprise some MCs, etc.
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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Fri Jan 06 2017, 13:43

I don't have the reaper, but I have proxied 8 wyches as lhameans for fun once. If your opponent is clueless about them, and you have some sacrificial kabalites to soak up overwatch, you might have some fun with them. They are really squishy though. Half of mine died after charging a 4 man necron elite squad on hoverthingys with som metal skullbugger of an hq/characer attached (I have no clue about necron model names Very Happy). They managed to kill the hq and three of the hoverthingys. The remaining hoverthingy wouldn't die and wiped the squad second round.

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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Fri Jan 06 2017, 14:06

Haha! 'hoverthingys' and 'metal skullbuggers' are brilliant descriptions Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Fri Jan 06 2017, 14:23

The reaper has access to cheaper wargear than codex vehicles, so that's nice. I take one occasionally.
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tegs
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Wed Jan 11 2017, 16:55

LMAO at "metal skullbuggers." Pure genius, that.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Wed Jan 11 2017, 17:32

Well Reaper is a very good choice.
- It has 5" diameter Pinning Haywire blast with good S and AP!
- It has 20% chance to ID any MC with 3+ regardless of Toughness.
- On average it will strip 1.11 HP off ANY vehicle including LR per shot before cover. (Ravager is better on AV 11 or lower)
- It can carry Torment Launcher for 5pts and its only its second weapon so it can fire together with main gun.
- It can have 5++
Srsly... Whats not to love?! :-D

Lhamaeans - well you need to put maximum pressure on the opponent T1 and they have a good chance reaching combat. They are good, but kinda situational. I believe that they are meant as extra attacks to Sslyth or Fiends. As long as you have more sslyth than Lhamaeans (for T5), you can buy 3 more 2+ poison attacks on charge for the unit for 10 points. Basically you can double the unit's CC offensive potential for less than half the price...

Or for Archon... If you had a relic that would give your Archon 3x 2+ poisoned A on charge and 1W with PFP for 10 points, wouldnt you do it? :-) Pretty good relic I think even if it "dies".
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Wed Jan 11 2017, 17:46

Huh. I hadn't thought of Lhamaeans as a wargear option Wink They're basically a Venom Blade, an additional attack and a wound for only 5pts more than a Venom Blade itself...

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Cherrycoke
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Wed Jan 11 2017, 18:42

Ya I'm surprised by the lack of Lhamaean love also, doing the maths a squad of 10 could put out insane damage for their low cost. I would take them over Wyches, Blood Brides, Incubi or a tooled up Archon anyway.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Wed Jan 11 2017, 19:38

Ofc they are a wargear option. Any unit that joins IC or IC that joins an unit is a mutual "wargear option". :-D

BUT! be aware that its a "wargear option" that does not enter a challenge. Its purpose has to be different! But then again... Archons are not challenge beasts, they are MEQ killers.

Court (and beastmasters) Have a very unique ability - to mix and match - in other words - upgrade an unit with another unit.

@Cherrycoke - actually they do not have grenades and they will die to a breeze. You need 3 of them to reliably put a wound on MEQ or MC. Its worth it on a MC, not worth it on MEQ IMO.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Wed Jan 11 2017, 20:17

Dont forget your 10 pt Lhamean also IDs on 6's.

Truly an underutilized unit. I am now starting to feel bad about only taking the requisite 1 for my HQ slot...
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Wed Jan 11 2017, 21:39

Just think if you could get a squad of those ladies into close combat with a wraith knight!

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Wed Jan 11 2017, 21:46

WK is wounded by poison on 6s only. And ID does d3 wounds instead, no?. Which means you will need... 9 charging lhamaeans and WK out of cover terrain. Am I right?
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Thu Jan 12 2017, 03:07

Charging Lhamaean against Wraithknight
Per Lhamaean 3 attacks 3/2 hits 1/4 wounds (instant death) 1/12 unsaved × D3 wounds - average of 1/6 of a wound per Lhamaean. So 36 charging Lhamaeans would take out a Wraithknight on average. Not brilliant, but by far better than most options we have available.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Thu Jan 12 2017, 07:18

Lol. I am sooo off... 6 wounds. 2 wounds on average coz of d3 means 3 unsaved - 4 with fnp, x3 for 3+ save is 12, x6 for need to wound is 72, mutiply by 3/2 is 108 attacks needed which is... truly 36. Kantalla is right. :-)
Note to myself: never do math while falling asleep.
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Thu Jan 12 2017, 09:40

Still the best option we have. And you're essentially ignoring feel No Pain.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Thu Jan 12 2017, 10:32

Nah. Heroes' Path. Solitaire will chew him up nicely. Costs less, has better utility and works against more than just WKs.
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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Thu Jan 12 2017, 13:00

Making killing the WK your goal is a suckers bet, or at least it is with Tyranids. Focus on the rest of the list and minimize what it can do. WKs get 2 shots at S:D, not too scary when your army is mostly squishy T:3/4 characters.

I'm the noob here, so help me out if I am wrong. My other low-tier armies (Harlequins, Inquisitin, Tempestus Scions, Tyranids) never win by going to toe-to-toe with the enemy. They win by picking and choosing favorable matchups and winning. I can't tell you how many tournaments I have won by giving my opponent a juicy kill point only to win the game by getting them out of position. I would imagine DE exemplify that play the best of any army.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Thu Jan 12 2017, 13:48

@mattblowers +1
But still Heroe's Path is an asnwer for many of our woes for cheap and fits nicely.
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Thu Jan 12 2017, 14:17

Does the solitaire really match up against a wraithknight? Just on paper I would have assumed the solitaire would do minimal damage and loose out to stomps?
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Thu Jan 12 2017, 14:57

Statistically he kills him more often than he doesnt. Plinking one or two wounds off him with blasters is insurance ofc. 12 attacks on charge - 2 wounds @ AP2, with Rose - little over 20% chance to inflict another 2 wounds and has like 30% chance to get stomped. And is Fearless. Good odds for 160pts model.

Add in shriek from Shadowseer and you are golden.

But the main benefit is that Solitaire is not a anti-WK weapon. He just trashes oh-so many units including the big boys we struggle against like IKs. He is the kamikaze of W40K.
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Thu Jan 12 2017, 23:31

I have run 10 lhamaean in a raider for a long time and they are fun and can do some damage, but they are so easy to kill that I had to switch them out for a grotserie (abbreviated grotesquerie Very Happy ).

Their highlight with me: killing a culexus assasin and a bike squad that outflanked onto me in one round of combat.

Their problems: If I want to keep them alive long enough to get into combat unscathed, then the rest of my army is getting shot up. If I let them get shot up, they die as fast as kabalites but are more expensive.

I've thrown them at a wraithknight and they did a couple wounds, but got wiped out from one round of stomping. I've thrown them at a necron dudes with rods of covenent. (I don't know necron names either, and I don't have creative names like the tentacle guy. haha, hilarious.) And they got wiped.

conclusion for me: I'd rather have tougher units that i can throw at the enemy so my venoms can last longer and hopefully capture more ovjectives.  lhamaeans are certainly fun to use, but don't survive long enough to do multiple things or even zone out an area.
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings! Where are the Lhameans and Reapers?    Fri Jan 13 2017, 06:08

Well... Harlequins aren't a solution for dark Eldar since they aren't dark Eldar Wink
But I assume that you're right: Ignore the knight, maybe lure him away and focus on the mission.

If you waft tougher units: a dark Artisan or corpse thief claw are the right thing. Until you meet D weapons...
I rather have more troops

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