HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 Suboptimal Unit Tactica

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
End Game
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 54
Join date : 2017-01-05

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 20 2017, 17:42

-k, so according to heresy combat calculator a T3 model with a 3+ save has a 13.9% chance to get offed by a s10 weapon. a T4 creature with a 4+ invulnerable has a 20.8% chance to get offed.
(mind you the numbers vs similar strength obviously favor toughness by a margin 1%-2% difference,, however when it comes to throwing a unit against something wiht a high S characteristic, math favors the wyches.)

7% makes a difference, just look at the american elections for proof lol

lol "they can die fast too"

Just examining genestealers, oh the go to guy of assualt nids anywhere, (one) king of the assuault troops, 4 points more than a khymerae +2ws which is largely academic anyway. and of course rending. Anyway, looking at the khymerae in this light doesnt make it sound too bad to me.

I dont know if 12" move characteristic and a 5+invulnerable is a good trade for rending myself, but it's not a bad unit by any means. Still, I usually just use them to support scourge due to the similar move characteristic.

as for whyches, using them to cover a couple warrior filled boats during a retreat has saved me a few times.

(4pts for rending + infiltrate? here take my money's!)

Either way, I'm not sitting advocating huge wych deathstars, just that a farseer and or autarch can greatly benefit wyches. is it a waste to slap a few warp charges on some semi-girlies? depends on the situation. (lol, and if the situation is that you brought some wyches, it probably is)

both are far better hiding in reserve with a unit of reavers though. too bad DE has such a paltry selection of hq that everyone else's named heroes start looking good.

By the way, I had not thought of doing a conga line to keep a farseer in formation with beasts. it's kinda cute.
Back to top Go down
amorrowlyday
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Massachusetts

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 06:39

I'm going to breath some life back into this and throw away any credibility I have garnered over an absurd thought: 5 squads of wyches each with a haywire grenade kills a knight for cost. Less than cost, and in 1 turn on average.
Back to top Go down
MHaruspex
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 125
Join date : 2015-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 08:29

That would be 5 grenade throws, 10/3 hits, 25/9 (approx 3) haywire results (minus 1-2 from the Knight's shielding), plus the close combat haywire.

Could work, but those stomps are deadly. At least Wyches get that 4++ and you could LOS to keep the Hekatrices alive for longer.
Back to top Go down
Ynneadwraith
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1164
Join date : 2016-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 10:06

...huh. Now that's interesting.

If they know anything about Dark Eldar they'll think you're a fool for fielding Wyches so they wouldn't see it coming.

Stick them in Venoms so they can still do the shooty stuff in games without Knights, and/or split up into 10 different obsec units.

_________________
Check out may pan-Eldar projects Smile Exodites, Corsairs, Craftworld, True Kin, Croneworld (soon) and one Shadowseer!: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t14405-corsairs-exodites-craftworlders-and-hopefully-kabalites-soon
Back to top Go down
Azdrubael
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1713
Join date : 2011-11-16
Location : Russia

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 15:10

Quote :
5 squads of wyches each with a haywire grenade kills a knight for cost.
How would that be better then Kabalites? Slightly Cheaper?

_________________
The Dance of Death begins - embraces, caresses, and kisses,
The Harlequin loves you as you fall over in pieces!
Back to top Go down
Rathstar
Hellion


Posts : 53
Join date : 2012-07-11
Location : UK

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 15:20

However couldn't Warriors with a Sybarite with a Haywire grenade do the same job for cheaper while being able to fire poison shots up to 24" away.

_________________
______________________________________________________________________________
My Blog: http://rathstarramblings.blogspot.co.uk/

@sweetbacon wrote:
You're spending 225 points on Wyches???

Wyches?!!

Why?  

Did someone threaten your family?  

Are you under duress right now?  

Blink if you are and I'll summon the authorities.
Back to top Go down
http://rathstarramblings.blogspot.co.uk/
Ynneadwraith
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1164
Join date : 2016-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 15:41

Don't have a codex next to me, do Hekatrix's have better WS/BS than Sybarites?

_________________
Check out may pan-Eldar projects Smile Exodites, Corsairs, Craftworld, True Kin, Croneworld (soon) and one Shadowseer!: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t14405-corsairs-exodites-craftworlders-and-hopefully-kabalites-soon
Back to top Go down
Azdrubael
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1713
Join date : 2011-11-16
Location : Russia

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 15:41

No

_________________
The Dance of Death begins - embraces, caresses, and kisses,
The Harlequin loves you as you fall over in pieces!
Back to top Go down
Ynneadwraith
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1164
Join date : 2016-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 15:52

Not that then.

4++ for extra survivability vs the Knight in CC?

_________________
Check out may pan-Eldar projects Smile Exodites, Corsairs, Craftworld, True Kin, Croneworld (soon) and one Shadowseer!: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t14405-corsairs-exodites-craftworlders-and-hopefully-kabalites-soon
Back to top Go down
MHaruspex
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 125
Join date : 2015-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 17:25

Yeah, the advantages you'd get (for 10pts more for the squad and loss of splinter rifles) are the 4++, extra attack in close combat, combat drugs, +1I, and plasma grenade throw.

Personally I don't know if it's worth the extra 2ppm (though I feel like I usually don't get much out of Kabalite shooting), but it does sound at least defensible to me. That said, I do find the ability to throw a plasma grenade each turn to be heavily underrated and rarely cited as a selling point of Wyches over Kabalites. Local AdMech and Tempestus players hate them, at least - unless you're against straight MEQ, it can be surprising how useful that cheap AP4 blast is.
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 17:58

@End Game wrote:
-k, so according to heresy combat calculator a T3 model with a 3+ save has a 13.9% chance to get offed by a s10 weapon. a T4 creature with a 4+ invulnerable has a 20.8% chance to get offed.
(mind you the numbers vs similar strength obviously favor toughness by a margin 1%-2% difference,, however when it comes to throwing a unit against something wiht a high S characteristic, math favors the wyches.)

7% makes a difference, just look at the american elections for proof lol

lol "they can die fast too"

Just examining genestealers, oh the go to guy of assualt nids anywhere, (one) king of the assuault troops, 4 points more than a khymerae +2ws which is largely academic anyway. and of course rending. Anyway, looking at the khymerae in this light doesnt make it sound too bad to me.

I dont know if 12" move characteristic and a 5+invulnerable is a good trade for rending myself, but it's not a bad unit by any means. Still, I usually just use them to support scourge due to the similar move characteristic.

as for whyches, using them to cover a couple warrior filled boats during a retreat has saved me a few times.

(4pts for rending + infiltrate? here take my money's!)

Either way, I'm not sitting advocating huge wych deathstars, just that a farseer and or autarch can greatly benefit wyches. is it a waste to slap a few warp charges on some semi-girlies? depends on the situation. (lol, and if the situation is that you brought some wyches, it probably is)

both are far better hiding in reserve with a unit of reavers though. too bad DE has such a paltry selection of hq that everyone else's named heroes start looking good.

By the way, I had not thought of doing a conga line to keep a farseer in formation with beasts. it's kinda cute.

Sigh. Dude, I think you misunderstand me. I'm a HUGELY competitive player who looks at every angle. I LOVE wyches for the models. I have 60 wyches on my shelf from last edition when they were capable of doing something. Wyches were the models that made me start playing DE.

Wyches now suck. I'm not saying that because I have something against them. I'm not saying you shouldn't waste ICs buffing them because I have a problem with "girlies". I'm saying it because it's a fact.

Also, your math at the top is biased and unrealistic. What S10 weapon doesn't have an AP? Almost all weapons S8+ have an AP. But regardless, no one is shooting S10 weapons at wyches and/or khymera. It's more realistic to compare S4-S6 weapons. And the 4+ invuln you're comparing to doesn't work vs. shooting, so wyches die long before they ever make it into combat to use their 4+ invuln. That's one of the major problems with wyches. Their save doesn't work against shooting.

_________________
Back to top Go down
MHaruspex
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 125
Join date : 2015-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 18:03

To be fair, does a Kabalite's save work against shooting? Other than Orks or Guard, I'm not really coming up with any armies that don't have army-wide AP5 shooting.
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2760
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 18:38

The Wych invuln, you mean? No. Cc only.

Neither wyches nor kabalites get a save against most line infantry fire.
Back to top Go down
MHaruspex
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 125
Join date : 2015-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 18:44

Right, I mean that it's not as though Wyches are significantly weaker against shooting compared to the alternative (Kabalites).
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 19:00

@MHaruspex wrote:
Right, I mean that it's not as though Wyches are significantly weaker against shooting compared to the alternative (Kabalites).

Wyches are significantly weaker, because they can't fire from 24" away and thin the fusillade that will be coming their way. They HAVE to get in close to do their job, which does 2 things that disadvantage them from Kabalites:

1. It eliminates opportunities for cover or staying out of enemy weaon range, and...
2. Gives your opponent an automatic chance to shoot you when you charge.

They're weaker because in order to do their job, they have to expose themselves to more shooting.

_________________
Back to top Go down
Ynneadwraith
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1164
Join date : 2016-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 19:26

Is that a concern for their potential purpose as Imperial Knight killers? Is there any shooting that an IK would be able to bright to bare that Kabalites could weather better than Wyches? Then when Wyches get into CC they've got a 4++ to protect them while they're tarpitting.

It's a niche, but could it be a niche where Wyches actually have value? Plus, from what I hear IKs are fairly common...

_________________
Check out may pan-Eldar projects Smile Exodites, Corsairs, Craftworld, True Kin, Croneworld (soon) and one Shadowseer!: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t14405-corsairs-exodites-craftworlders-and-hopefully-kabalites-soon
Back to top Go down
amorrowlyday
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1222
Join date : 2015-03-15
Location : Massachusetts

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 19:31

Those disadvantages are specific to quantity fire though. Hence why my example was an imperial knight 1-4 guns all of which are ignoring either squads armour save and fnp. 4++ is precisely why I brought up wyches instead of kabbies. Kabbies definitely die outright if they don't kill it. Wyches only probably die, and if not swept will evenentually win more often then not.

I think if this is something you'd even consider doing you need both bullet sponges and actual anti-infantry to support them. Something like grotesques and splinter cannon cloud dancers.
Back to top Go down
Sess
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 26
Join date : 2016-10-07

PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Mon Jan 23 2017, 22:54

I really like wyches similar to many others but they are just very weak. Even for killing imperial knights, if you are willing to take harlequins as allies, can take the hero's path formation which includes a shadowseer, death jester, and solitaire. Solitaire gets a ton of attacks and auto-glances vehicles on 6s and gets a 3+ invulnerable save. Not saying wyches wouldn't work, but that there may just be a more efficient option.
Back to top Go down
 
Suboptimal Unit Tactica
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Dark Eldar Tactics
-
Jump to: