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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Thu Jan 05 2017, 11:15

So I'm currently getting a dozen proxied Razorwing flocks ready for the table, knowing that beasts aren't necessarily the best choice this edition and that the Razorwings don't quite stack up to Khymerae anyway.

In doing so, however, I've been thinking of ways I could make them more useful. Their major weaknesses are T3 and WS2, which you could get around with Invisibility (though that power helps any unit), though it could also be fun to attach a Corsair character with Shimmershield to boost survivability or a jetbike Farseer to reroll rends with Doom. If you absolutely had to run Razorwing Flocks: how would you make them most effective?

On a related note, it'f be good to list some ways in which you'd use weak units if you absolutely had to, to at least make them as effective as possible. As an example, Wyches become much stronger with Furious Charge - by deepstriking them in, they can arrive turn 2 and charge turn 3. With a Haemonculus (or Animus Vitae or Urien Rakarth in the case of multiple Wych units), turn 3 charges get Furious Charge as well. Plus with all the talk of running Kabalites in Venoms with haywire Sybarites, it's worth mentioning that Wyches in a similar configuration cost 10 points more and lose the splinter rifles, but provide a little bit of assault capability, the 4++ invulnerable save that can let the haywire Hekatrix fight Dreadnoughts, and the surprisingly powerful shooting attack against non-MEQ armies that is the plasma grenade.

What are some other rarely used units and what are some ways you've made them more viable?
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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Thu Jan 05 2017, 11:53

So the weaknesses I see in Razorwing Flocks are the low WS, S and T (though T is on par with Dark Eldar) and possibly also their low Ld, AND the fact that they don't benefit from Power From Pain.
The low Ws is made up for a little by the 4 Attacks, and the Wounds I would call a strength as well. Rending also works in their favour.

So what I'd say they could really do with is something to make them more survivable.
Having a Haemonculus in the unit would slow them down a little, but would give them Feel No Pain, which would help a lot.
Nothing else from Dark Eldar really lends anything which would confer to the unit.

A Jetseer Council might also help, if you can buff them up with some Biomancy, but they'd only be alongside the Flock rather than in it.
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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Thu Jan 05 2017, 12:08

@Squidmaster wrote:
Having a Haemonculus in the unit would slow them down a little, but would give them Feel No Pain, which would help a lot.

FNP doesn't confer to the unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Thu Jan 05 2017, 17:57

In my mind, their strength is in what they have alone.

Sure, there's a swarm and not very durable, but 4 attacks with Rending is scary. And they're cheap! Just know exactly what you're going for with Razorwing Flocks, and play the balancing game of deploying close, making a beeline for the intended target, and staying out of LoS. If nothing else, just make sure to mention to your opponent that you can't wait to get your Rending swarm over to their big shiny whatever thing. They'll spend a turn shooting it that they didn't spend shooting your shooty things.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Thu Jan 05 2017, 18:52

There's nothing wrong with Razorwing flocks besides being finecast and costing 25 usd. It's also the only unit available across all Eldar factions who have 15wounds for a hundred points, and at max squad size it is the cheapest option by far. However this does not make them the optimal choice for an attached Corsairs character because due to opportunity cost that means we are forfeiting placing the shimmershield on a unit with FNP, which is arguably more valuable for the daemon-style 5++ afforded by the shimmershield.

At 6.66 points per wound a razorwing flock is the cheapest unit in any eldar army. Don't waste points trying to improve the damage output or survivability of this unit. Instead bring things like Psykers or tanglefield grenades that serve as multi-unit force multipliers and use squads of 1-3 or 5-7 Razorwings to pile attacks on to a target that a different unit has already weakened.
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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Thu Jan 05 2017, 19:20

I too wanted to make the Beastback work. Other good abilities you missed are fleet and move through cover (both awesome in certain situations)

You can increase their T to 5 by adding an equal amount of Clawed Fiends.

You can also increase their Ld by adding in a beastmaster (but you will need more Clawed Fiends)

The most useful USR IMO is HAR. The swooping hawk Pheonix Lord has wings (so you keep fleet), and gives you a bunch of great boosts (like blind to help with your WS). But you would need to ally in CWE, and what self respecting Archon would ask for help from our prissy cousins? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 06 2017, 01:53

How about a Shadowseer? Harlequins seem less prissy than Craftworlders Wink

Plus, H&R, Move Through Cover, Fleet, and nasty things like Veil of Tears for a big blob of Razorwings/Clawed fiends Smile

Fast-moving T5 multi-wound Rending protected by Veil of Tears with a fleshbane/armourbane character who can also throw out the odd Psychic Shriek sound pretty nasty now that I say it out loud...

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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 06 2017, 02:50

Rarely seen/not used; 3 Clawed Fiends. 18 S5 attacks on the charge makes short work of anything rear armour 10. Low threat target means you can get them where they need to go pretty well!

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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 06 2017, 10:23

@amorrowlyday wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Razorwing flocks besides being finecast and costing 25 usd.

I have to disagree. Sure they're cheap wounds but when those wounds are T3 with (effectively) no armour then I'm not sure of their benefit, especially with the amount of S6 firepower that exists these days. A single unit of scatbikes will seriously ruin the flocks day. Okay, they're decent against Grav but most grav wielders are T5 so you're only able to wound on a 6. Granted that will also Rend but 4 attacks at WS2 will usually mean 2 hits so you're looking at 3 flocks (60 points) in order to get a single Rend.

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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 06 2017, 11:29

@Ynneadwraith I agree that the Shadowseer is a great addition, it just costs a lot of "Tax" units to take. And personally, I really dislike their vehicles, especially the one with the gun facing the wrong way.
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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 06 2017, 12:56

Oh yeah that gun is horrendous. One of the things I dislike about Harlies is how difficult it is to work them into a list in creative ways, aside from the Heroes Path and that other one with a min Troupe + DJ + Shadowseer. They could really do with an HQ unit TBH. Same with Skitarii...

I suppose thinking about it the other way around might be a better way of doing it. Which Dark Eldar units can we drop into a Harlequin army that would do a nasty amount of work. That way you've already got to take your 'tax' units, but get to try out some Dark Eldar combos too Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 06 2017, 15:52

I'd never deepstrike Wyches on their own, cause of the way they will arrive in a circle formation. But having Raider with them in Reserve is surely one of the better uses of the unit.

Since you really dont want to assault earlier then turn 4.

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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 06 2017, 15:57

Nah just stick a fearless Haemonculus in that raider as well and charge turn 3. Take a sump, fleet turn 3 rampage turn 4. Question is: since you're maxed out at 9 bodies does a Hekatrix become worth it, and moreover for this specific use would the worst unit in the codex, the Bloodbride, be a better tool for the job? If so, Siren?
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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 06 2017, 16:10

Nope, since ObjSec on regular Wyches is one of their few perks.

You'd have to take other Haemunculus stuff, if you are taking him from the coven. And its all very expensive, question was - how to use your suboptimal units, not how to try and make them ok by ataching not-suboptimal force multipliers.

You dont force multiply a weak squad. If you suceed you will just make them kinda ok while trowing a lot of points.

Their aid should be other good squads nearby and carefull selection of targets.

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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 06 2017, 16:40

Regarding beasts, does anybody have some experiencs with the other beasts?

S/T4, 3 attacks, 6+/5++ on a high movement unit which are not slowed by terrain doesn't sound too bad for a 10 pts unit (Khymera).

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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 06 2017, 17:56

Khymera are quite good, and can actually pull HP from vehicles with AV 10 at the rear. Their large base size allows them to clog up laneways, but also means its hard to remain out of LOS. Seems to be hit or miss unit, where you want to be against some GEQ that they can munch.

Love the 12" ignores cover movement, along with fleet re-roll charge range.
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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 06 2017, 18:27

Wyches: In an army that is going to be in CC anyway a grotesquerie is an auto-take choice. The fearless Haemonculus provides little utility and barely any force multiplication for the Grotesques after turn 2 anyway. That Haemonculus is a tax. You suggest that I'm throwing points after a bad unit, but I'm just consolidating my taxes. Unless you're going all out CC and grabbing an additional vanilla grotesque unit, or a unit of incubi, you'd be wasting that Haemonculus by attaching them anywhere else. Excepting of course D-scythe wraithguard, but like the previous examples the cost has increased well more than linearly.
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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Sat Jan 07 2017, 00:34

Don't know if you're determined to take just razor wings - but I was toying with the idea of 6 man beast units - 2 x fiends, 2 x kyhmera, 1 x flock, 1 x master

- this gives you majority toughness 5, and overcomes one of their big weaknesses.

edit: I should point out I've never actually played this - they probably still suck. Just thought it was cool we could get majority toughness 5 so easily whilst only having 1 or 2 models with that toughess.
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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Sat Jan 07 2017, 12:05

Quote :
Wyches: In an army that is going to be in CC anyway a grotesquerie is an auto-take choice. The fearless Haemonculus provides little utility and barely any force multiplication for the Grotesques after turn 2 anyway. That Haemonculus is a tax. You suggest that I'm throwing points after a bad unit, but I'm just consolidating my taxes. Unless you're going all out CC and grabbing an additional vanilla grotesque unit, or a unit of incubi, you'd be wasting that Haemonculus by attaching them anywhere else. Excepting of course D-scythe wraithguard, but like the previous examples the cost has increased well more than linearly.

Ok, it just strike me, to take Grotesqerie and Wyches is at least 550+ pts on close combat. Thats a hefty amount of points. Meaning probably no reavers, cause you have to take mandatory things like double ravagers, at least 4 venoms with kabbies, some scourges. Yeah, those Wyches will be okay, they will share power from pain tables from coven with Zealot and Fearless right off the bat.

My point being is Wyches dont have a place in assault oriented army, more like they are supplement for heavy shooty army, kinda fresh reserves arriving when forces on the table are depleted, wounded, anti tank is shot off, units are spread and going for objectives.

Grots dont leave depleted forces....they just shred them to little bits and pieces, either win completely or lose due to hard counter..

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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Sat Jan 07 2017, 21:24

I can't help but lament at how awesome my Beast unit once was with Baron Sathonyx... (sigh). My birds used to be highly skilled pack hunters.

In terms of proxies- have you heard of a game called "Zombicide"? Their "murder of crows" box could fit your modelling requirements. I've used clawy/stabby Tyranid Warriors as Clawed Fiends but would be ken to know what others use for them.

Good on you for exploring the different units!


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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Sun Jan 08 2017, 01:18

@Azdrubael wrote:
I'd never deepstrike Wyches on their own, cause of the way they will arrive in a circle formation. But having Raider with them in Reserve is surely one of the better uses of the unit.

Since you really dont want to assault earlier then turn 4.
Can still run after deep strike, so you don't need to stay bunched up unless you want to shoot with them.

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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 20 2017, 02:56

I was having a conversation earlier about wyches adn making them viable when the thought of 8 wyches an autarch with a banshee mask and a farseer stuck in the midst came to mind.

with santic daemonology you are looking at a healthy chance to end up with s5-7 wyches that have 3+ invulnerable saves in melee combat. spewing out + 24 attacks (at s6 on turn 4) assaulting out of a boat with an additional 8 attacks that are poisoned on their guns.

and of course then there are the attacks from the autarch and farseer... could always slap a power maul on the autarch and have him hit on the same level as the wyches in the off chance they get completely buffed up to s7

why the madness you might add? combat drugs and furious charge my friends is almost worth the 1 point difference over the eldar equivalent... well, almost.
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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 20 2017, 05:15

The problem with that, End Game, is that for the same price as wyches, you can get a beastmaster unit of all khymera, which are beasts with 5+ invuln saves both in AND out of combat, with 3 attacks on the charge, S4 and T4, and 12 inches of movement. So they're stronger, tougher, faster, have more attacks, and their invuln save works outside of combat.

So if you were going to put a sanctic farseer in with them, they could easily end up being S6 with a 4++, and no real need for the banshee mask. A Unit of 10 puts out 40 S6 attacks on the charge and can be used to slingshot your farseer into combat by stringing a couple units behind to maintain coherency(I've used this unit many times). It's kind of funny giving a daemon improved saves and strength with sanctic, but that's how it works in this case.

Basically, khymera do what you're suggesting far better than wyches do, for a much lower price(since you don't need an autarch too).

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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 20 2017, 17:03

I thought this thread was about sub-optimal units. I suppose being Dark Eldar is sub-optimal enough eh? Khymerae cant shoot, and I am unsure if they can go in transports by the way with the beast subtype (and something about the daemon special rule comes to mind...).

Lol, guess the best way to fix a sub-optimal unit is with an optimal (farseer or autarch) one, that's kinda sad.

meh, I'll take a 3+ invulnerable save over a 4+, works in my head as an extra 16.66~% chance to not die.

hard to immediately factor in the difference in toughness as a percentage though, I would have to see a calculator.
-k, so according to heresy combat calculator a T3 model with a 3+ save has a 13.9% chance to get offed by a s10 weapon. a T4 creature with a 4+ invulnerable has a 20.8% chance to get offed)


wyches =10pts
khymerae = 10pts

only viable role i can see for wyches is dying slowly anyway lol.

-my meta is full of Tau players, autarch with a  banshee mask helps by allowing me to multicharge and tie up fire warriors. unless i want to square off shooty wise against tau on my AV10 vehicles...


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PostSubject: Re: Suboptimal Unit Tactica   Fri Jan 20 2017, 17:40

@End Game wrote:
Khymerae cant shoot

Trust me, a buffed Khymera unit with hammerhand and sanctuary doesn't lament the loss of a few splinter pistols.

@End Game wrote:
meh, I'll take a 3+ invulnerable save over a 4+, works in my head as an extra 16.66~% chance to not die.

Yeah, 3+ invuln is better. But if it only works in CC, they die in droves to shooting. So a 4++ overall is better than a 3++ only in combat. Especially if the 4++ is on a T4 unit while the 3++ is on a T3 unit. Toughness makes a huge difference in survivability.

And no, you don't put khymera in vehicles, but they move 12 inches in the movement phase, and can run up to 6 inches in the shooting phase, so they aren't slow. And like I said, you string them out to keep the farseer in coherence, despite them moving 12 inches.

@End Game wrote:
hard to immediately factor in the difference in toughness as a percentage though, I would have to see a calculator.


It's virtually identical to the difference between a 3++ and a 4++ save against everything below S6. So most of the time, it's that same +16.666% chance of survival. At S6-7, T4 means no instant death. And at S8+, there is no difference between T3 and T4.

@End Game wrote:
I thought this thread was about sub-optimal units.

Khymera are pretty suboptimal units until you buff them by using a tactic, the discussion of which is the point of this thread. Very Happy

@End Game wrote:
only viable role i can see for wyches is dying slowly anyway lol.

Nonsense. They can die quickly too. Wink

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