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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Tue Jan 03 2017, 12:45

Hello fellow denizers of The Dark City. Harlequins didnt behave well this past 3 tournaments, with horrendous caress rolls left and right and I'm looking for something to fill the 700ish gap the masque detachment leaves in my army with some good ol' true kin. Lets get to business.

What would you think about a 3 models Razorwing Jetfighter wing in an air superiority detachment with splinter cannon as its only upgrade? They are certainly overprized (140p each... wow.) but they bring some utility to the table:

-First and foremost: Reserve manipulation. I use null deployment tactics A LOT, and being able to roll reserves on a 2 or 5+ depending on the situation would be gold.

-In the same fashion, drop pod heavy gladius battle companies would have a very bad time if they dont have flyers, as they would come out of reserve on a 5+ roll.

-Attack patterns are the reason I would carry 3, specially the intolerance attack pattern, that would give them ignore cover vs air targets (flyers, skimmers, jetbikes, FMC and FGC). This would be useful specially against Hive tyrants, always a pain in the ass, specially when theres 4+ of them, daemons (FMCs), eldar (windriders) and another dark eldar.

-Vehemence is also a good attack pattern if you fight other fliers since dissies turn into a kinda okayish antiflyer weapon when coupled with tank hunters, since most fliers have around 10-11 armour value.

-12 monoscythe missiles would be useful against hordes. Yes, those are few and far between, but only with venoms are kinda hard to put down, specially genestealer cult swarms. They would also help vs marine parking lots a little I guess.

Also, dark eldar wing leader table is not that bad... is it? Okay, yes, it is quite bad.

I dont know. Im personally quite divided with this. On one hand it would bring so much utility to the army and so much punch against some meta armies that are tough to deal with for Dark Eldar, but on the other hand its a 420p sink that against some matchups is far from efficient.

Here is the list I was thinking of fitting them into for context purposes only.:
 

¿What's your take on this wing? ¿Is it worth it?

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Tue Jan 03 2017, 14:34

If your local competitive scene uses the new DftS rules, it sounds like they're much more useful.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Tue Jan 03 2017, 14:52

I use the AS detachment with 2 razorwing.
Since I like do deepstrike a fair share of venom and a Dark Artisan reserve manipulation alone is gold.
The problem is: for the cost of a wing you could field something extremely more efficient. Do NOT use it in a competitive list.
On the other hand it can be a fun formation.
When it works it is incredibly efficient and my adversaries learned to fear them, hope they never find out is due to dumb luck. If you don't fire the missiles right away they can be a good distraction carnifex, if you don't mind the risk to lose a good fraction of your points to a stray bolter round.
Again: fun in a fluffy list, taboo in a competitive list.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Tue Jan 03 2017, 16:27

I just sold mine off. They don't seem to have the bang for their buck.


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Tue Jan 03 2017, 16:36

Never been impressed with Razorwings. Not sure if the DftS supplement improves them at all but my experience has always been a letdown. I ended up giving mine away to a mate.

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Tue Jan 03 2017, 17:03

Count Adhemar wrote:
Never been impressed with Razorwings. Not sure if the DftS supplement improves them at all but my experience has always been a letdown. I ended up giving mine away to a mate.
Reserve manipulation of +\-2 is fine and pseudo-vector dancer helps, nothing game breaking tho.
I mainly play against daemons and orks, so the missiles work wonders.
Since the daemon player starter using KDK the flyers started focusing on the cultists squads, the occasional helldrake and the eventual bloodthirster.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Tue Jan 03 2017, 21:36

Why not Blackheart then?
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Wed Jan 04 2017, 01:02

amorrowlyday wrote:
Why not Blackheart then?

Voidravens are crap and you are forced to take 2 of them.
Formation bonuses are crap too.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Wed Jan 04 2017, 17:15

I like the razorwing jetfighters, I usually run them with lances plus splinter cannon with necrotoxin missles.

The dissies seem like a better choice but everytime I run them I find the dissies just don't cut it for your only air support (T6+ FMC are semi-popular in my area).

They are OK, the missiles are usually pretty nice I prefer the necrotoxin for GC and MC (plus the added bonus of not caring if it scatters into your raiders) but the Monoscythe missiles are just as good but different.

Lances aren't that great at taking out heldrakes but if you can gang up on them or hit them from behind then you can at least take them out.

I find they tend to be a little over-costed but still worth using. I haven't tried dtfs at all (it's not yet accepted here) but I think the reserve manipulation would make them even more worth while.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Wed Jan 04 2017, 17:34

The dogfight phase from dfts is simply s**t, it slows down the game, most times nothing happens and occasionally is counterproductive, so we agreed to skip it.
The second 90° pivot is pure gold, no more weird angles entry every other turn.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Wed Jan 04 2017, 17:49

The thing about the Razorwing is that it is a sub-par unit that specializes in AI, where our other units shine. Personnally I was looking into the Eldar flyer formation, since they have 4 S8 shots each (and we really lack on the AT IMO)
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Thu Jan 05 2017, 13:42

Well I use Razorwing in every list of 1500+ points and they performed for me every time very well. I once used 3 and they practically won me the game. They can put a terrible hole in the enemy's plan. I dont get why people hate them so much. The same goes for the Voidraven.

As for the formation - you are really lucky that your gaming buddies use the DftS rules. The ignore cover makes them so amazing...
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Thu Jan 05 2017, 13:53

aurynn wrote:
Well I use Razorwing in every list of 1500+ points and they performed for me every time very well. I once used 3 and they practically won me the game. They can put a terrible hole in the enemy's plan. I dont get why people hate them so much. The same goes for the Voidraven.

The Voidraven is overpriced before we even think about adding missiles to it and is actually a better fighter than our fighter, which is ironic as the fighter is a better bomber than our bomber!

The Razorwing suffers from having crap AT weaponry and a complete inability to fire its missiles against other flyers. As a fighter, it is utter rubbish. It might be good as a bomber in a meta that features lightly armoured troops in large numbers, ie swarm/horde armies. I rarely play against such armies and therefore the Razorwing is of no use to me.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Thu Jan 05 2017, 14:05

RWJ put wounds on MEQ and TEQ well enough. What more - they put it practically anywhere on the table. And they serve as anti-horde weapon in my army. They really work well for me.

Voidravens I have no problems paying the points loaded with missiles. It can do oh-so-much damage...

Its true that bomber is better fighter and vice versa, but so what.

For me they put hurt where I need it despite the position of the rest of the units on the table. They also can draw fire, which is equally important to me.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Thu Jan 05 2017, 14:19

You clearly have very different experiences to mine, which is fair enough. To me, in my meta, they are simply not worth having. YMMV.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Thu Jan 05 2017, 16:10

Well I hope it stays this way. I already have 3x RWJ and 1x VRB and want to buy another bomber just to try the flyer formation. :-D For example in something like Corpsethief, Grotesquerie and the Blackheart Talon. Could be really fun to run.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Thu Jan 05 2017, 18:15

Way too many times I run into a MEQ opponent who is completely unprepared for the Razorwings arrival (despite me explaining its armament beforehand). It comes in, and gets over 20 hits! WOW!

Then it needs to wound vs T5 guys. Meh

Then it needs to get though 3+ armor. Darn

Then there is a 4+ FNP. WTF.

1-2 guys die to my 140 pt flyer.

This has been my experience with it 3/4 games. But if you get formation bonuses, then go for it!
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Thu Jan 05 2017, 18:27

I'd rather use 2 dissie RWJ or dark scythe VRB vs MEQ, without cover per formation bonus and you only have to worry about FNP.
Still the usefulness is very meta dependent.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Thu Jan 05 2017, 19:32

So you use them for the Dissies rather than the missiles? I had always assumed the missiles were the main point of them...
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Thu Jan 05 2017, 20:47

@Logan Frost wrote:
I'd rather use 2 dissie RWJ or dark scythe VRB vs MEQ, without cover per formation bonus and you only have to worry about FNP.
Still the usefulness is very meta dependent.

Take into consideration that only the Void gets ignore cover vs ground targets, the jetfighters have ignore cover only vs air targets (jetbikes, skimmers, flyers, FMC and FGC)

@fisheyes wrote:
So you use them for the Dissies rather than the missiles? I had always assumed the missiles were the main point of them...

Yes, thats the point. A formaton of 3 razorwing jetfighters with splinter cannon in the intolerance pattern are really good against FMC spam (Hive Tyrants, Daemons), Eldar (Windriders) and other Dark Eldar. The missiles are a nice thing to have on the side, but would not be the main focus of the wing.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Thu Jan 05 2017, 20:52

fisheyes wrote:
Way too many times I run into a MEQ opponent who is completely unprepared for the Razorwings arrival (despite me explaining its armament beforehand). It comes in, and gets over 20 hits! WOW!

Then it needs to wound vs T5 guys. Meh

Then it needs to get though 3+ armor. Darn

Then there is a 4+ FNP. WTF.

1-2 guys die to my 140 pt flyer.

This has been my experience with it 3/4 games. But if you get formation bonuses, then go for it!

20 hits is really low for all 4 missiles (though I have gotten much lower), but with 20 hits vs 3+ and 4+ FNP the necrotoxin missiles would average 2-3 unsaved wounds, in that same scenario you would need 4 venoms to do equal damage.



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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Thu Jan 05 2017, 21:01

Seshiru wrote:
20 hits is really low for all 4 missiles (though I have gotten much lower), but with 20 hits vs 3+ and 4+ FNP the necrotoxin missiles would average 2-3 unsaved wounds, in that same scenario you would need 4 venoms to do equal damage.
Exactly. But the difference is that you do this damage with only one unit and not 4. Anyway, RWJ and VRB are deterrents and a threat. Its also AntiAir, albeit not ideal ones perhaps. Both are really multifunction beasts, that can change the course of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Fri Jan 06 2017, 12:10

Out of curiousity, what enemy armies does the Razorwing do the most work for you? Hords or FMC lists? I play a lot of MEQ armies, and against them the Razorwing is lack-luster most of the time.

But if you could ignore cover or get an invul save (not sure if we can get that one), it may be worthwhile.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Fri Jan 06 2017, 12:20

Both blobs with low saves and FMC are their optimal targets. So nids, orks and daemons.
And Dark Eldars.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Razorwing Jetfighter Wing   Fri Jan 06 2017, 12:49

My main enemies are mostly SM (they infest everything lately) with a springle of CHSM, Eldar, Tau, Nids and Necrons. Haven't played against Orcs in years. The selection of target is critical. RWJ can come too early in which case I just fire the dissies or lances and let him fly off again.

Ignore cover is useless at MEQ since they already have 3+ save IMO. That is useful only with VRBs and Implosion missiles.

I fire the rockets where it hurts and at places which my other units cannot reach. Devastators, Chosen, Terminators, Veterans, Eldar bikes - expensive units with potential to carry out the enemy's game. Its not about them paying themselves in points, its about hurting the enemy's chances to victory. No point killing 2-3 regular marines.
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