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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: First or second turn?   3/1/2017, 03:22

First post!

Just as the title says, do you generally pick first or second turn? I know that people like to get alpha strike, but I prefer second as you can refuse flank, and counter the opponents deployment. Let me know your opinions, as I would like to hear them as i am new to 40k and DE is my first army, and I've only played about half a dozen 400 point games yet.

-and also, I am a newb so can someone please tell me how to change my profile picture?

Thanks! Wink
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   3/1/2017, 03:46

First turn unless I'm null deploying.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   3/1/2017, 04:30

Depends on the mission.
In alot of obj missions its a big advantage to have the last turn so you want to go second.

The counter deployment tactics you mentioned like refused flank are great too.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   3/1/2017, 07:52

I normally want to go second due to end of game mission objectives based on how most tournaments calculate scores.

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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   3/1/2017, 09:27

First if you are playing maelstrom of war missions or the relic and dont plan on null-deploying, if not, second.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   3/1/2017, 15:31

Why first for Maelstrom, out of curiosity?
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   3/1/2017, 16:39

In Maelstrom each player gets a random objectives and fullfills them at at the end of his own player turn, in Eternal War who controls an objective is determined at the end of the game turn, so going second allows you to close the game, contesting or stealing objectives knowing that the opponent cant fight back.

Relic I want to have the first turn so I can seize the relic with some reavers and pull it back into my territory. Specially effective if nightfighting is active.

Forgot to say that purge the alien is situational too, but more often than not you'll want to have first turn too.

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   3/1/2017, 17:29

I like second if my opponent is a null deployer or if he has shorter range than me. I hide in a corner and can focus on half his army

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   3/1/2017, 19:34

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
In Maelstrom each player gets a random objectives and fullfills them at at the end of his own player turn, in Eternal War who controls an objective is determined at the end of the game turn, so going second allows you to close the game, contesting or stealing objectives knowing that the opponent cant fight back.

Relic I want to have the first turn so I can seize the relic with some reavers and pull it back into my territory. Specially effective if nightfighting is active.

Forgot to say that purge the alien is situational too, but more often than not you'll want to have first turn too.

I understand how Maelstrom works. I don't understand how going first gives you a significant mechanical advantage in Maelstrom.
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   3/1/2017, 19:37

@Jimsolo wrote:
I understand how Maelstrom works.  I don't understand how going first gives you a significant mechanical advantage in Maelstrom.

It doesnt, but vs most armies you wanna get first turn for the chance of alpha striking them. Obviously there are exceptions.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   4/1/2017, 00:56

Ah, yes. (I agree.)

My mistake; I thought you mentioned it because you saw some specific mechanical advantage specific to Maelstrom.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   4/1/2017, 07:21

If I win the roll off I'll almost always choose to deploy first that way I get to choose who goes first turn 1. Whether or not I'll choose to go first will depend on the army. Sometimes I'll fully deploy on my table edge AND make my opponent go first. Other times, I'll nully deploy and make use of infiltrate. Against other armies I'll play straight up for the alpha strike I've gained by deploying aggressively. All of these arrangements are executed by the same list.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   4/1/2017, 08:54

Pretty sure if you choose to deploy first you also have to go first.  I'll double check that, though.

Edit: Nope, I'm wrong. The player who deploys first chooses to go first or second. That IS interesting, since it means if my opponent forces me to deploy first, I can choose to GO second. That could potentially be useful in some circumstances.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   4/1/2017, 13:44

Due to all the Rhinos in my meta (and my unwillingness to take more AT weapons), I prefer to go second. With all the new releases out in 40k, I run into a lot of lists I dont understand. So going second I can point to an enemy unit and ask the other guy "what is this, should I be afraid of it, is it a shooting or CC unit", etc.

Going second also allows for the all important sieze roll (which I get about 1/3 of the time Very Happy )
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   4/1/2017, 17:14

@Jimsolo wrote:

Edit: Nope, I'm wrong.  The player who deploys first chooses to go first or second.  That IS interesting, since it means if my opponent forces me to deploy first, I can choose to GO second.  That could potentially be useful in some circumstances.

Yeah, this rule has been universally deemed stupid, and I don't know anyone who plays this way. Pretty sure every major tournament circuit changed this as well. I know for a fact ITC did.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   4/1/2017, 18:05

Citation needed. I run ITC events, and neither the FAQ nor the the general rules have outright ruled the way you're suggesting. Most likely, you and everyone you've played since 7th hit simply played that step wrong.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   4/1/2017, 18:34

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Citation needed. I run ITC events, and neither the FAQ nor the the general rules have outright ruled the way you're suggesting. Most likely, you and everyone you've played since 7th hit simply played that step wrong.

Not played wrong. I didn't "miss" the rule. We know what it says. We just intentionally don't play that way.

As for your citation, I played in both the Las Vegas Open and Adepticon in 2016, and I'm pretty sure both had that rule. I looked through the ITC stuff online, however, and don't see it. So it's possible that it was in the tournament packet that we got at the actual tournament, or that I'm misremembering. I can virtually guarantee that at least 1 of the 2 said something along the lines of "For ease of tournament play, whoever chooses to deploy first also goes first unless their opponent siezes the initiative."

That said, I still have my tournament packets, but don't want to dig them up at the moment, so I can't be 100%.


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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   4/1/2017, 18:55

Then they are utilizing rule 1, and your stance isn't anywhere near as sturdy as you are assuring us it is.
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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   4/1/2017, 20:12

Each of the six ITC scenario pages have setup guidelines where step 8 says: "Roll for first turn. The player that wins the roll can choose to go first or second. The player going first then deploys first and goes first unless the other player seizes the initiative." (added emphasis)

It can get confusing even at tournaments when someone isn't used to playing like this.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/

But to add to the thread, I too find first or second turn situational. I play mostly ITC scenarios right now and I go second a lot so I can score end of game objectives, but getting the first punch in helps a lot too..  And then the Purge the Alien type missions you always want to go first of course.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: First or second turn?   5/1/2017, 01:23

btfdeech wrote:
Each of the six ITC scenario pages have setup guidelines where step 8 says: "Roll for first turn. The player that wins the roll can choose to go first or second. The player going first then deploys first and goes first unless the other player seizes the initiative."

Thanks for finding that! I thought for sure I remembered it being a thing in ITC, but I couldn't find it in the basic rules. I was almost 100% that it was in the mission packet though, and this is why. It's listed in each of the individual ITC scenarios, which is what the mission packet consists of. Wink

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Then they are utilizing rule 1, and your stance isn't anywhere near as sturdy as you are assuring us it is.

In light of the above revelation, I'd say it's still fairly strong.

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