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 Dealing with Knights

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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Dealing with Knights   Thu Dec 29 2016, 19:39

I am looking for ideas to slow down Imperial Knight armies. They're all over my meta. Three knights can really do a number on my MSU venom and bike spam. I have been playing around with the popular D Scythe Drop (Archon with gate, 5 wraithguard with D Scythes, and Corsair Baron with muti-key)x2. It's surprisingly lack luster and very expensive to run. Are there any other good ideas out there that have slowed knights down?

People have suggested a Fire Dragon Drop but because they can't battle focus while the archon is with them, they're not much better than the D Scythes with less tournament utility.

Others have suggested Haywire saturation. Scourges are cheap but vulnerable. Corpse Thief can get owned by grav. Harlequins are pricey and vulnerable... Any other thoughts? And don't say wraithknight!

RB

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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Thu Dec 29 2016, 19:44

Trilance ravagers and heat lance scourges might work.
Other than that, massed MSU CC/heat lance reavers could do some work

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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Thu Dec 29 2016, 19:49

I use a harlequin masque with 3 units of 5 harlequins with caresses. That coupled with 6 units of 3 reavers with caltrops usually lets me kill 2 knights, more than that gets hard, specially against baronial court (the one that lets them OW, I might have gotten the name wrong).

But in my experience, this matchup makes or brakes by the scenery. If you're playing on planet bowling ball, prepare to get your ass handed to you, if there is abundance of BLOS elements, the IK player is in for a bad time.

Sadly we as Dark Eldar dont have enough reliable firepower to deal with Imperial Knights, and our cc options are limited to reavers... Its a tough matchup.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Thu Dec 29 2016, 20:11

Rancid, I think you named lots of things that can all deal with Knights pretty well. Then you went and talked yourself out them by pointing out weaknesses. Realize anything you bring will have some sort of weakness. If you are taking something to simply to deal with Knights or other Mech options, realize they will be weaker in other areas.

The most obvious choice to me is a Wraithknight if your up for allies. They will dominate an IK in either phase depending on weaponry.

Reavers, Scourges, Kabs w/ Blaster and HWG Syrabite could help, other Eldar goodness.

I would not suggest Corpsethief as they are highly susceptible to D Stomps and D Sword attacks. They can Smash, but with not enough attacks to reliably kill an IK. We took a hit with allies not being in our transports, but I think this requires us to use ALL the AT at our disposal instead of grabbing 1 or 2 Eldar units.

What is your standard list that you run? Maybe we can help shift that to help deal with IKs.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Thu Dec 29 2016, 20:58

"Don't say the one thing that's obviously good." Okay.

You could suicide in a mass of Scourges with heat lances. You could also use expendable units with haywire grenades. These aren't solutions so much as possible answers to one, maybe two Knights.

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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Thu Dec 29 2016, 21:13

@Teenageangst~ What is your solution? Play Eldar?

@BizarreShowbiz~ I like your harlequin idea. I am going to math-hammer how many caresses I need to kill a knight.

@SCP Yeeman~ Good point. Nothing will work 100%. I agree with your thoughts on the CTC. I hesitate bringing the WK. It's one step too far into playing Eldar for me. Getting a wraith knight is a line I won't cross.

The last two times I have faced knight heavy lists I took the following:

DE CAD:
2 archons with WWP
4 warrior squads w/ Venoms
6 Reavers with CC

Eldar CAD:
Autarch w/ bike and banshee mask
Farseer w/ bike
2 x 5 Wraithguard with D Scythes
2 x 3 scatterbikes

Corsair RF
Command Crew with Baron with bike and multiphase key

Coterie with Baron with bike and multiphase key
3 scatterbikes with Titan Breakers



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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Thu Dec 29 2016, 22:00

multiple kabalites w/blaster haywire grenade. focus on one at a time?
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1++
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Thu Dec 29 2016, 22:39

Death by a thousand cuts man. Every unit you run has to threaten mech/Knights. Every unit!! We don't have a magical "kill Knights on the drop" unit. The entire army has to function together to eliminate the threat. What i mean is 1850 of your points must kill 385 of his. That's the way we deal with them. It's down to you as an Archon to execute that plan by way of list building and tactics - Don't rely on gimmicks (No scatter Webway, twin linked Haywire Blasters, deepstrike melta range), you have to work for it!

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Thu Dec 29 2016, 22:50

When I ran Wraithguard in Raiders, I never gave them D-Scythes. I don't like the 50pts you pay nor do I like the doing nothing on a 1 or 2. I would try at least 1 squad with normal D shots. This allows you to roll that 6 that will negate their shield and do 3 HPs (ITC) at least and still potentially blow them up with the Pen roll.

With those 50 points saved, you can grab some Blasters/Heat Lances on your Reavers, a Melta on your Autarch and a Spear for your Seer. Those all ass AT options and good things regardless of what you face. Your list does not change much, and to me actually gets better. If you have Guide on your Seer, guide those WG with Cannons to ensure more hits.

If you wanted to change the list more, I might drop the Seer altogether. With 3 WCs, he wont do much against a heavy Psyker list nor will he be casting loads of powers. If you are still worried about AT, load those Venom Squads up with Blasters and Syrabites w/ HWGs. That is more than enough AT I think to deal with 3 IKs.

Personally when I fight IKs, I deal with their entire army before fighting them, unless I have a dedicated unit to stopping them (sometimes I do and sometimes I dont). You have dedicated units (Wraithguard) to fight them and to take the other 1 or 2 HPs left the other units can help as well.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Fri Dec 30 2016, 03:22

@1++ wrote:
Death by a thousand cuts man. Every unit you run has to threaten mech/Knights. Every unit!! We don't have a magical "kill Knights on the drop" unit. The entire army has to function together to eliminate the threat. What i mean is 1850 of your points must kill 385 of his. That's the way we deal with them. It's down to you as an Archon to execute that plan by way of list building and tactics - Don't rely on gimmicks (No scatter Webway, twin linked Haywire Blasters, deepstrike melta range), you have to work for it!

1++ is wise.

That being said ive stripped the last 4 HP off a knight in just one turn just with this 1 unit which you almost have already...

Autarch - jetbike, haynades, mask (taken for reserve manip. in a null deploy army).
+6 reavers - 2 HL, 2CC.

2HP from shooting and the last 2HP in assault... Knight goes boom.  Laughing
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Fri Dec 30 2016, 04:45

@Rancid blade wrote:
@Teenageangst~  What is your solution?  Play Eldar?

If you want to win, play what wins. If you want to play for fun, play what you want and ask your opponent to not be a dick by bringing MULTIPLE Knight Titans against Dark Eldar.
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Knights   Fri Dec 30 2016, 13:21

@Rancid blade wrote:
@BizarreShowbiz~  I like your harlequin idea.  I am going to math-hammer how many caresses I need to kill a knight.

I'll do the math for you, 5 harlequins deal 3.5HP onto a Knight on average, a 3 man reaver squad 1

But as you'll notice, both units need to roll sixes to wound, what means that their results are really random for better or worse. I've been playing this setup for more than a year and In my experience three things can happen:

1. you flop, do almost nothing and die
2. you wreck the thing in one go
3. And the most common, you leave it with 2-3hp, survive with 2-3 harlequins and then either wreck it on the enemys turn or die in it. Regardless, you kept it busy on its turn, preventing it to shoot and dealing some damage on the process so some reavers or another squad can finish him.

The great thing about harlequins is that their charge range from aboard a starweaver is fenomenal. 24" on average, that means that if theres some BLOS midtable you can greate a big threat radious where the IK player wont want to be, as they dont have any weapon that doesnt need LOS to fire.

The same can be said about reaver jetbikes, they have nothing that removes their 3+ cover save except the flamer, and even then they have 5+ FNP from turn 3 onwards, what means reaver spam is a pain in the ass for IKs, as they have no way to efficiently deal with multiple 3-man units.

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