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 Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!

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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Tue Dec 27 2016, 23:43

Hey everyone,

Ive been working on a Homebrew Decurion formation for the Dark Eldar!

In addition to DE needing a decurion, Ive also tried to use special rules to make some of the "less competitive" units a bit better, mainly wyches, hellions, beastpacks and voidravens.

In a world of Wraithknights, 400 free points of rhinos, and army wide scout, is there anything that looks OP?

Any and all feedback is welcome! If this gets enough community support, I may send it over to GW.
Thanks!

Homebrew Decurion: http://imgur.com/a/YGbKf

Edit: I should have included that all formations from the Covens Supplement count as Aux choices!


Last edited by RoadRageRob666 on Mon Jan 02 2017, 07:58; edited 1 time in total
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Wed Dec 28 2016, 08:13

I probably wouldn't be inclined to use it. There's nothing there which benefits Freakshow lists, so there's not much enticement to switch away from the Covens formations.
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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Wed Dec 28 2016, 10:05

Thanks for the feedback!

I think that most of the covens formations are good enough as is and all of them count as auxiliary choices within this decurion (should have included that bit).

I was focusing on formations that make DE better as a stand alone army, specifically making wyche cults usable, and kabals better, while keeping true to the fluff. As cool as freakshow lists are, you`re not really playing Dark Eldar, you`re playing super-friends, which is great and all, but I`d like to see DE get a little buff.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Wed Dec 28 2016, 12:11

Command Benefits / Swift As Shadows: The ability to generate additional units which can Deep Strike in turn one is a bit much. Its basically "Hahaha Drop Pod Assault, we do it better", which I think might be a bit too far. I suggest dropping that part of the rule, and maybe incorporating From The Webway as the manner in which the first half of the army deploys in the first turn.

Core: I think your main Core blocks are too large, with too many options. Kabalite, Wych and Coven Formations like those I don;t think should come with Flyers, Lords, or other such things. They should be a core of what they are. Kabalities for example should really just be Warriors and Trueborn. Additional units like Archons and Courts belong in COmmand, and some things in Auxilary.

Command: All of your options here are too large. If you look at other Decurions, the COmmand choices can be filled simply by a single Commander model. You shouldn't have to take three Archons, not when your army should really be led by a single Archon. Maybe add the options for Incubi or a Court, but not force multiple HQ units.

Aux: Theres no options for Covens here. Also, based on other Decurions, there should be an option for generic units taken outside of Formations. Most of them have random options of "Take some of this tank" for example.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Wed Dec 28 2016, 13:29

ALSO, not nay-saying, honestly trying to help, but....


Behold!



I used this when I started trying to put together my own Campagin set and Detachment a while back, and updated just for you (though I don;t have my hands on Imperial Agents or Wrath of Magnus to add them to the numbers).

Based on the average numbers, you can easily get away with 3 Core options. That fits nicely. Restircting Core to three (so its 1-3) has precedant, though not sure I would for Dark Eldar.
However four Command Options is too much, and would be more than anyone else has ever had. I would point out that in many cases, the choices are "Take this choice, and take one of the following.....and lists HQ models. Thats probably your best bet for the first option, choossing EITHER an Archon, Succubus, Haemonculus, Character, etc.
Nine Aux is ok, but I'd push it if I were you. Go for ten. Setting them as 1+ works.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Thu Dec 29 2016, 16:45

I don't like the deep strike piece of it (though I love the name). I would much rather see an extra movement mechanic given to us. Something like a jetpack move in the assualt phase for our skimmers would be preferable and I don't think it would be OP.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Thu Dec 29 2016, 17:01

Yeah I've always thought that the Dark Eldar are missing out a trick compared to Craftworlders and Corsairs when it comes to Battle Focus/Reckless Abandon/JSJ tomfoolery.

I've always favoured something like 'Battle Frenzy: Any Dark Eldar non-vehicle unit may make a run move before or after shooting, provided that by doing so it moves closer to any enemy unit'

There's precedent in the Corsair and Craftworld ruleset for this sort of rule, it puts us on par mobility-wise with either, it's slightly different to the existing rules and it's fluffy representing a bloodlust-fueled mad dash towards their prey Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Thu Dec 29 2016, 18:32

While the idea of Battle Frenzy is cool, most of our CC guys can barely shoot (Sslyth would love this , but Incubi not at all Sad ), and our shooty guys don't have any incentive to get up close (Unless your packing Shredders or hoping for rapid fire) we're incentive to stay as far away from our enemy as possibly with our shooting unless we're doing a suicidal WE MUST RAPID FIRE OR DIE. (Side note how would this work with Reaver jetbikes?)

If this mechanic comes in though (which I do like), I'd like a bit more synergy to give us incentive to get up close with our guns.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Thu Dec 29 2016, 21:33

Imo our mobility should come from fast skimmers and good deep striking options.

I have thought about a "Battle Frenzy" rule as well, but I think it should give us the abilitiy to deal more damage. Maybe allowing us to shoot an additional round of snap-shots or a free run/shooting move if a unit removed another unit from play.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Fri Dec 30 2016, 00:24

Yeah being able to snap-shoot while running would be nice (especially if coupled with additional movement range of vehicles before they have to snap-shoot.

I was more trying to make it viable to run a DEldar army without the usual flotilla of vehicles. Although that's very fluffy, I'd like to have the option of running a fast footslogging army (or still retain mobility once our skimmers are blown to smithereens).

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Sun Jan 01 2017, 14:30

I really like the command benefits, I think they play into our armies style perfectly, though it does seem to be all Deep Strike heavy.

In general I like the Kabalite Raiding Party, though I'd change the Raveger requirment to 0-1 (it would be nice if Ravagers could come in squadrons as well). I don't like the Power From Pain table, Fearless shouldn't be gained that easily IMO. I do really like the special rules, they really allow the army to move quickly and shoot which is currently missing, though I'm not sure about vehicles being able to use line of sight from anywhere along their flight path, could get rather finiky.

The Wych Cult Brigade looks nice, but forcing the player to choose between Reavers and Hellions means Hellions will never be taken. I don't think the Voidraven should be a part of this formation, it's more of a Kabal vehicle than a Cult one and again I think your handing out Fearless far too soon. Accrobats of Pain needs a reworking, an Initiative test at -1 is completely pointless since all Cult units that can be embarked on a transport are I6 anyway so they still only fail on a 6. The Strength 4 hit is also a bit much, with only a 5++ you're almost guaranteed to loose 1 or 2 models from a 10 man unit and I don't see why they should be at -1 Initiative for the rest of the turn either, being incredibly fast is kind of their point. Masochistic Tendancies doubles down on these problems so I can't see anyone attempting to disembark after going flat out. I like the Combat Drugs choices here.

Not sure about the Haemonculus Horror Show. Not including Freakish Spectacle seems like a bad move and Feast on Their Souls seems like it would be a right pain in the neck to work out who regains wounds.

All the command choices are bad, no one ever wants to run huge squads of HQ's. Upper Echelons is particularly bad because unless your using a Tantalus you can't fit the Clawed Fiends and Grotesques into a a vehicle with all the IC's, and having them just footslog across the board is not particularly useful, though at least they'll all have Eternal Warrior by turn 3, or 2 if use Urien Rakarth.

I'll go through the Auxillery choices later.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Sun Jan 01 2017, 20:07

@Imateria The voidraven is definitely a cult weapon. Fluff wise it's crewed by the best of the best reaver pilots, and is supposed to be a bomber in name only, like b52's in the Pearl Harbor movie.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Mon Jan 02 2017, 07:14

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback! Ill try to address everything as thoroughly as possible, given the quantity!

@Squidmaster wrote:
Command Benefits / Swift As Shadows
But, we should be able to effectively alpha strike better than drop pods, as I see it. The rationale behind the "additional units may DS from DS Reserves on a 5+" was to open up the possibility of letting another unit or 2 DS. Remember, these units all scatter the full 2D6. Do you think that it would be better to get rid of the additional DSing on a 5+, and replacing it with a 1D6 scatter for automatic 1/2 Alpha strike reserves? Again, DE should be able to conduct 1st turn Alpha strikes as effective, or more effectively than Drop Pods.

Quote :
Core: I think your main Core blocks are too large, with too many options
I would disagree, considering other factions core choices: Necron Reclimation = 1HQ/4units min, 1HQ/20 units max, Eldar Guard BattleHost = 1HQ/5 unis min, 1HQ/6 units max, Eldar Wind host= 1 HQ/5 units, SM Demi = 1 HQ/5 units min, 1HQ/7 units max (these are all more points than DE, as a note), White Scars Hunting Force = 1HQ/4units min, 2HQ/12units max, Raven Gaurd Pinion = 1 HQ/6 units min, 2 HQ/11 units max.  The majority of these core choices have HS slots (monoliths, Devs, etc).

Quote :
Additional units like Archons and Courts belong in COmmand, and some things in Auxilary.
As far as I know of, all cores need an HQ, so theyre been represented here, with the option of additional HQs in the Command slot. Making a Court auxiliary is actually a really good idea, but Id like to leave an option there within the Core, as Archons=Court of the Archons. I wouldnt be opposed to just allowing the 1 Archon generated court, however!

Command was honestly a little difficult, because without new rules/war gear options/ prices within a new Dex, our HQs are lack luster, for the most part. So ive compensated inefficiencies with fairly powerful rulings (DSing 6 units, combat drugs for Grots, Talos, and Beastpacks, etc). Do you have any suggestions for Command choices?

I should have included this in the main post (will Edit): All Covens formations count as Auxillary choices. I think that the Covens formations are good (for the most part), so why tamper with what works!

@Ynneadwraith wrote:
Battle Frenzy: Any Dark Eldar non-vehicle unit may make a run move before or after shooting, provided that by doing so it moves closer to any enemy unit
I actually like this rule, and agree that we should have the same mobility shenanigans as CW/Corsairs, the only thing, is that its our vehicles that should be more mobile, and allow for better assaults (DE wouldnt degrade themselves to foot slogging, we fly in through a webway portal, jump out of our transports, and get into combat). My way of addressing this was through the Kabal and Cult core formations: Kabals are able to move and shoot more effectively while inside transports, and cults are able to jump out of transports and assault after they have moved more than 6". Any comments on those mechanics?

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Imo our mobility should come from fast skimmers and good deep striking options.
My thoughts exactly, do you have any thoughts on the stuff that I've come up with?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Mon Jan 02 2017, 07:53

@Imateria wrote:
I'm not sure about vehicles being able to use line of sight from anywhere along their flight path, could get rather finiky.
Honestly, Id agree, but due to a FO move occurring in the shooting phase and how large a move it is, I was trying to come up with a way of us still being able to get some decent shots out. The alternative options being: A) make snap shots BEFORE FO, B) make snap shots AFTER FO. I decided with the during FO, to give a drive by feeling to the rule, and allow for more tactical use (shoot while hoping from cover to cover. Any recommendations on how to improve/streamline this rule?

Quote :
choose between Reavers and Hellions
This is already a choice that we have to make, and Reavers win 10/10 times lol; until hellions get a buff, Reavers will always win. I've tried to address this a little bit within the Aux formations. Concerning the PfP table in general, Im open to ideas! Concerning the Fearless rule in specific: in the Covens books, Fearless is given out at T2 in a book that requires Haemies in pretty much every formation (so Fearless T1), the purpose of T3 fearless in the Kabal and Cult PfP tables is to mitigate the effects of half of our embarked units dying to exploding transports lol.

Voidravens are 100% cult units, as pointed out!

The acrobats of pain/masochist was meant be a high risk vs high rewards, they are jumping out of transports flying around the battlefield, there is going to be the odd casualty. The Acrobats -1 initiative during the test is equivalent to a snap shot, the St 4, is equivilant to an explosion, so I dont thin that those are unreasonable, as you said, double it up for jumping out of a FOing transport. The purpose behind the -1 I for the rest of the turn is to adversely affect combat without going full on "has to make a disorganized charge": at I5, HQs can swing back at the same time as wyches, at I4, generic non-humans can swing back at the same time. Im open to ideas on streamlining wyches jumping out of vehicles at times that other units cannot!

Quote :
Not sure about the Haemonculus Horror Show
Freakish spectacle is something that can definitely be included. Yea, I was struggling in making a decent way for covens units to regain wounds without going full out IWND: any recommendations for streamlining this?

Lol Upper Echelons is one of my favourite formations, a DE deathstar, whats not to love? Also, as the entry states, they can take 2 raiders that are treated as a vehicle squadron as transport, so no Tantalus needed. I touched on the Command Choices in my previous post, but essentially: yes taking HQs with DE sucks, hence why I;ve tried to include powerful rules for doing so. Any Command choice recommendations?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Mon Jan 02 2017, 10:53

Absolutely agree on the more mobile vehicles, being able to move further and still shoot/assault. Fits perfectly with DE. Fun, fluffy, useful and not overpowered Smile perfect.

There's two reasons I'd like to add an additional movement mechanic for footsloggers as well. The first is that in the fluff Dark Eldar are supposed to be physically superior to Craftworld Eldar. We're supposed to be at or near peak physical fitness for an Eldar, so I feel that should translate to the tabletop in at least equal movement shenanigans to CWE/Corsairs. The second is that one of the issues with DE at the moment is that, with only a few minor variations, the army is fairly monobuild. The only really viable tactic for troops is Kabs in Venoms/Raiders. I'd like to see at least a semi-viable footslogging army, if only because it would broaden the options for potential army builds which I view as always being a good thing in 40k Smile plus, it would increase our effectiveness in Zone Mortalis games where skimmers/vehicles are a liability.

So, we'd end up with infantry that is at least on par with the other Eldar factions movement-wise (aside from jetpack Corsairs which is fine), and vehicles that are superior movement-wise, which is how it should be for an army whose main trait should be speed Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Mon Jan 02 2017, 16:05

Quote :

Honestly, Id agree, but due to a FO move occurring in the shooting phase and how large a move it is, I was trying to come up with a way of us still being able to get some decent shots out. The alternative options being: A) make snap shots BEFORE FO, B) make snap shots AFTER FO. I decided with the during FO, to give a drive by feeling to the rule, and allow for more tactical use (shoot while hoping from cover to cover. Any recommendations on how to improve/streamline this rule?
Honestly I'd just make it to Snap SHooting after going Flat Out, there really is no need to over complicate this given that it's going to amount to the same thing, moving fast and shooting.

Quote :

Quote :
choose between Reavers and Hellions
This is already a choice that we have to make, and Reavers win 10/10 times lol; until hellions get a buff, Reavers will always win. I've tried to address this a little bit within the Aux formations. Concerning the PfP table in general, Im open to ideas! Concerning the Fearless rule in specific: in the Covens books, Fearless is given out at T2 in a book that requires Haemies in pretty much every formation (so Fearless T1), the purpose of T3 fearless in the Kabal and Cult PfP tables is to mitigate the effects of half of our embarked units dying to exploding transports lol.
Then why include Hellions at all? Either make them a separate choice or remove them completely from the formation.

Fearless only really matters with Covens on Grotesques, who are Ld3, and they're genetically modified monsters under the complete control of an Haemonculus so shouldn't really be susceptable to moral anyway.

Cult and Kabal units are different, if we're just going to hand out Fearless all the time to most of the units in the game then we might as well just get rid of moral all together. Fearless T5 is fine, making us Fearless for most of the game is not something I will ever support.

Quote :

The acrobats of pain/masochist was meant be a high risk vs high rewards, they are jumping out of transports flying around the battlefield, there is going to be the odd casualty. The Acrobats -1 initiative during the test is equivalent to a snap shot, the St 4, is equivilant to an explosion, so I dont thin that those are unreasonable, as you said, double it up for jumping out of a FOing transport. The purpose behind the -1 I for the rest of the turn is to adversely affect combat without going full on "has to make a disorganized charge": at I5, HQs can swing back at the same time as wyches, at I4, generic non-humans can swing back at the same time. Im open to ideas on streamlining wyches jumping out of vehicles at times that other units cannot!
High risk, limited reward. As much as I generally like your formations, they wont suddenly make Wyches good.

Quote :

Quote :
Not sure about the Haemonculus Horror Show
Freakish spectacle is something that can definitely be included. Yea, I was struggling in making a decent way for covens units to regain wounds without going full out IWND: any recommendations for streamlining this?
The Cronos is meant to be a support unit, I always liked the idea of it being able to give wounds back to friendly units within a certain range for each unsaved wound it causes in combat.

Quote :

Lol Upper Echelons is one of my favourite formations, a DE deathstar, whats not to love? Also, as the entry states, they can take 2 raiders that are treated as a vehicle squadron as transport, so no Tantalus needed. I touched on the Command Choices in my previous post, but essentially: yes taking HQs with DE sucks, hence why I;ve tried to include powerful rules for doing so. Any Command choice recommendations?
You let them take 2 Raiders as Transports and then gave them no ability to split the unit across two vehicles, making it completely pointless. Not that it had a point anyway, if you think about the way vehicle squadrons work it just makes the idea of transporting 1 unit in 2 transports dumb.

As you said, our HQ options aren't great so I'm not sure what I'd do for Command choices, however plenty of other meta detachments have that "HQ Deathstar" option and nobody takes them because whilst they might be considered fun at times, they are not good.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Homebrew Decurion: C&C please!   Mon Jan 02 2017, 20:10

@RoadRageRob666 wrote:


@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Imo our mobility should come from fast skimmers and good deep striking options.

My thoughts exactly, do you have any thoughts on the stuff that I've come up with?

With this I was actually referring to the Battle Frenzy thing ^^.


I am actually working on an own custom-Decurion as well and we do have a fair share of similarities. However, I find it difficult to give good feedback because our approach is very different. Personally, I would avoid complex new rules and just make use of already known rules and maybe alter them.

My personal impression is that some of your rules are "too much", like the "Swift as Shadow, We Strike". It's not a bad thing, really. It is just a matter of taste.

Naturally, I understand your motivation. There are top-tier armies with great formations and if we were to compete with these armies, we need formations that are "beyond great". But I don't think formations should elevate our codex to such heigths.


Nonetheless, you might be interested in a few ideas from my own codex:
- Labyrinthine Cunning as WL trait if the Archon from the Kabalite Raiding Party is your warlord.
  (granted, it's not necessary with Swift as Shadows)
- Annihilation Squadron: Ravager/Razorwing Jetfighter Formation. Rapid Fire for Ravagers, Ignore Cover for Razorwings.
- Trueborn Formation: Free Ghostplates, can take Heat Lances/Haywire Blasters and the Dracon can take Arcane Wargear (read Webway Portal).
- Wrack formation: +1S for liquifiers. And one Wrack can take a special weapon for every 2 wracks.
- Blood Dancers: Move Through cover and Master Crafted for Incubi, Bloodbrides and Wyches.
- Hellion Formation: Skyfire and Scout. One Helliarch may become a Hellion Lord.
Hellion Lord: Gains an extra Wound, get's Ghostplate Armour and can take items from the Arcane Wargear list.

As for Wych cult units, I found that improving Combat Drugs helps a lot. I tried to make all options as good as +1T/+1S: +1 T/S, Fearless, +1 PfP (faster furious charge), Crusader, Zealot

Note: My Decurion is heavily WIP and I don't have a lot of time to work on it.
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