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 Thinking of what would be cool for DE

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Dracon Laerhras
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PostSubject: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 13:26

so i think that having a supplement for wych cults would be cool, you could have new detachments and new models for the wych cults. they could even bring back the 3rd edition rule, where if you chose X detachment standard warriors would become tureborns automatically...

just a thought that would be cool or summing tell meh what you think?
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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 13:34

I am not sure Wyches need new models. I like the current model line. I just wish they were better, yes so formations that would make Wyches good would be awesome.
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Dracon Laerhras
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 13:37

@mrmagoo wrote:
I am not sure Wyches need new models.   I like the current model line.   I just wish they were better, yes so formations that would make Wyches good would be awesome.

oh no not saying redo the models but more like add in new models for more variation. (like attacking models or ones that are just standing there, like the forge world death krops)
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 14:04

Yeah the Wych models are some of the coolest GW models ever made as far as I'm concerned. No need for a replacement Wink

However, their rules could do with a shot of Adrenalight...

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Dracon Laerhras
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 14:08

@Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah the Wych models are some of the coolest GW models ever made as far as I'm concerned. No need for a replacement Wink

However, their rules could do with a shot of Adrenalight...


i think that wychs need at least a weapon sill of 6 to counter balance the 1 attack or to have 2 attacks with a weapon skill of 4.
the elites would i guess only need to get +1 attack and +1 initiative
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 14:39

Hell, just a formation that allowed you to roll twice on the combat drugs chart would be a nice buff Smile

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 14:42

You know it would be something like "a full-size unit gets the Fear rule" though.

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Dracon Laerhras
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 14:51

brilliant if your fighting meat-shields (guardsman)...but mostly every thing is fearless...

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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 15:04

@Count Adhemar wrote:
You know it would be something like "a full-size unit gets the Fear rule" though.

...provided the unit is led by a Hekatrix and all special weapons are Razorflails.

Sounds about right.

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Dracon Laerhras
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 16:47

to be honnist, i think the wychs couldn't even get close enough to a group of guardsman, the lasgun rife is real.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 17:41

There's one thiung thats important to consider - Wyches are Troops.
They're not an elite fighting force, they are a base core unit. As such, any improvement to them could only ever be to make them average rather than brilliant. As is they're terrible of course, but things like WS6, or a decent Invulnerable save, would be a step too far for a basic unit.
(Granted some armies have amazing basic units, but those tend to be smaller forces entirely focused on having those units).
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 18:43

I believe GW has always seen Force Org designation as being about theme more than game balance (game balance being that thing they don't think about much) - a unit is designated as "Troops" because it's supposed to form the backbone of the army, rather than because of its power level. That's why some HQs over the years have done things like change certain units from Elites to Troops and vice versa.

Wyches were originally Elites. Then they were still Elites, but if you took a Succubus (then called an Archite) as your HQ they became Troops and Kabalites became Elites.

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 21:02

Yeah I don't think Wyches in their current incarnations should get something like WS6 or a permanent inv save. You're right, they are troops. TBH I'd just take a points decrease.

If not, then giving them Bladestorm as per Count Adhemar's fandex, or giving Wych Weapons a bit more bite (and letting Bloodbrides take 4/5 Wych Weapons) would be good enough.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 21:53

@Squidmaster wrote:
Wyches are Troops. They're not an elite fighting force

That may just go down as the understatement of the century! They barely qualify as a fighting force, let alone an elite one! Very Happy

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 22:27

When looking at how much the Coven book helped making Coven what it is, I agree that it really are formations that we lack right now. If we take the wishlisting one step further, I would love a full Dark Eldar Decurion with one out of 3 possible Command Crews (one dedicated to Covens, Kabals and Cults giving unique bonuses that make their units benefit the most).

One way or the other, combat drugs need to be redone so that not only +1T/S actually makes a difference. On the custom Decurion I am working on, choosing the Wych Cult Command Crew actually replaces the old combat drugs table with this:
1. +1 Toughness
2. +1 Strength
3. Fearless
4. +1 PfP
5. Crusader
6. Zealot

However, with that all we'd achieve were even better Reavers with Wyches, Bloodbrides and Hellions still serving no purpose in our army. Really, I would like to change that.

But even If Wyches were to get better rules, would they really become good? Admitted, in 3.5th ed they were terrifying (but as mentioned, they were also elites). After that, all they had were mass Haywire grenades. So, they lack a clear role.

As for anti-infantry we already got plenty of anti-toughness weapons, so when looking for a role for Wyches and Hellions I would wish for a stronger anti-armor role. Not the level of can-openers that are Incubi, but still a reliable force against everything not AP2.

Something that you can throw at a blob of space marines and know that if they make it into combat, they will either munch through them completely or reduce them by a sizable amount.

I think this can easily be achieved with 2 rule changes: First, give them something against armor, ANYTHING. I don't care if it is rending, bladestorm or just something that forces your enemy to re-roll successful armor saves. And make them 7/8pts a piece. And don't forget the new combat drugs.

Leave their defense as crappy as it is at the moment and let them be weak against overwatch. Let their dispoable price and high body count be their defense that mitigates incoming fire.


The Wych weapons should also serve a distinct role. Like, lower attacks of all surrounding models by 1 or a guaranteed AP3 attack. Take those changes, let Bloodbrides be the Cult's Trueborn and let them take 4 weapons per 5 models and I think you got a serious unit to fill your elite slots.


That leaves Hellions, which cannot possible remain a Fast-Attack choice because of Reavers. I think they could bring most to the table if they were to be made Troops as well. Fast jump units that can take objectives and don't require a (likely exploding) transport to be agile on the board. Couple that with Scout or Infiltrate to give them an early heads-up and maybe a minor points decrease and you really got a decent unit. With another +1S from the CD table, you even get S5 Hit & Run jump models that has ObjSec.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Thu Dec 15 2016, 23:20

^It has to be said, of the 6 Coven formations it's really only the Grotesquerie, Corpsthiefe Claw and Dark Artisan that are regualrly used because they all feature units that are good without the supplement. Scalpel Squadrons see some use but the Venoms are more useful in that than the Wracks are.
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Fri Dec 16 2016, 03:49

@Imateria wrote:
^It has to be said, of the 6 Coven formations it's really only the Grotesquerie, Corpsthiefe Claw and Dark Artisan that are regualrly used because they all feature units that are good without the supplement. Scalpel Squadrons see some use but the Venoms are more useful in that than the Wracks are.
Yeah, the haemy covens is really Grots, Talos's, and alphastrike Venoms, the supplement.
Not that I'm complaining though. I love the book Very Happy

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Fri Dec 16 2016, 13:21

Ya, we have had many a thread on this topic. So many things that can be done with the wyches, and many of them would not be too OP.

Personally, I would rather remain a bottom tier codex than become the new CWE. I joined the True Kin because nobody else was Razz
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Fri Dec 16 2016, 17:23

But actually, when thinking about something that "would be cool for DE" I'd go for a DE LoW.

Not not the clichéd super Grotesque/Talos, neither the unimaginative Ultra-Heavy-Ravager-Deluxe. Instead, a collossal being of manifesting shadows which originates from Aelindrach (more Mandrake love) or other completely alien forbidden zones in the webway (Cthulhu says hi).

Rule wise, it would be a GMC that forces Night Fight, has Infiltrate and causes leadership tests en-masse.

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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Fri Dec 16 2016, 17:39

Just have our LOW be a unit of Vect's Castigators, who are buffed, evil/awesome looking wraithguard!

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Fri Dec 16 2016, 18:38

@stevethedestroyeofworlds wrote:
Just have our LOW be a unit of Vect's Castigators, who are buffed, evil/awesome looking wraithguard!

I would honestly prefer my Dark Eldar being more than just, you know Dark ELDAR.
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of what would be cool for DE    Fri Dec 16 2016, 18:40

So many possibilities, so many opportunities for GW to disappoint us Razz
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