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Nutcase5000
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PostSubject: Can someone build me a list 2k   Sat Dec 03 2016, 15:41

Right i have given up trying to decide what list to have for a while need some help/ideas

i want a effective list as the novalty of useing my favort race and looseing has began to get old

i need a effective pure DE army list of 2k. Can i get some lists from people to help my indecisive brain decide.....prefrebly within what i have..... oh and i only play kill points in my shop. no objective play design needed and unbound is ok

heres what i have....


HQ: Archon, Drazhar, Succubus,

Troops: x30 Kabalite warriors (blaster, splinter cannon x2)

Elites: x16 incubi (love incubi)

Fast Attack: x10 Scourge (x4 blasters). x10 kymera beasts x2 beast masters. x1 Razor wing jetfighter (wepons changable)

Transports: x4 raiders (3 Dark lances 1 disintergrator)

Heavey Suport: x2 ravegers (all Dark lannces). x1 Talos. x1 Voidraven (wepons changeable)


any list examples from as many people as possible is most wanted ty












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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Sat Dec 03 2016, 15:47

Well, you are playing missions that are to our disadvantage. We have no toughness, and very little strength. Whats more, you dont really have the most competitive units to work with.

Going with a Kill Point mission, you will need Coven units (tough guys). They come in the form of Talos or Grotesques (which you dont have anywhere near enough of). Alternately we have Reavers, which are fairly good at surviving using their 3+ jink (but again, you dont have any).

The fliers are OK, so keep playing with them. I wouldent recomend Incubi, just because they are too fragile for a KP mission (they are OK if you are not worried about KPs).

Lastly, you dont have that many units to work with at 2k. Can you start at a smaller point limit? (like 1k?)
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Nutcase5000
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Sat Dec 03 2016, 16:11

yeah sure.

preferably wana know what the best 2k list i can get outa what i have
but i dont mind adding more buying more transports

i usealy stick 8 incubi on a raider x2 1 unit with archon with a agoniser n shadow feild and the other 1 with drazhar both with klavexes and usealy find theyre the best thing in the army usealy rack up alot of points
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Sat Dec 03 2016, 16:26

Ok, so I attempted your challenge, and I can get up to 1685 pts in a fairly competitive manner:

CAD:

Succubus: AOM, HWG, Glave - 115

2x Incubi (5 man): Raider (NS) - 340

Warriors (10 man): SC, Raider (NS, Splinter Rack) - 180
Warriors (10 man): DL, Blaster , Raider (NS, DL) - 190

Beastpack (1 beastmaster, 10 khmare) - 110
Razorwing jetfighter: SC, NS - 155
Scourges (5man): 4xblasters - 140

2x Ravagers: 3xDL, NS - 280
Voidraven: NS - 175

Total = 1685 (315 remaining)

So you would still need a few more units to make this work. If you want to use more Incubi, you will need a transport for them. Same with basically any unit that you choose.

If I were to make a recommendation for this type of mission, I would say look into Grotesquery, Dark Artesian or the Corpse Thief Claw formations. All of them are tough as nails and would work good on KP missions.

Keep in mind that we are VERY fragile. If that mini-deathstar works for you, than keep it. In my meta it would get stomped/shot off the table first turn Sad Which is why I prefer smaller units who can sit back and let their transport shoot for them. Once the enemy reaches you, hopefully they are depleted to the point where a 5 man Incubi squad can take them out in 2 assault phases.

Best of luck buddy
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Nutcase5000
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Sat Dec 03 2016, 16:51

Thank you for the build. i will give working off this template a go Smile


Intresting do u not add sybarites/solarites etc to ur units for better LD testing?
Did u mean for the warriors to have a dark lance in them?

and dark scyth or void lances on bomber and disentergator or Dark lances on razor wing?
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Sun Dec 04 2016, 21:48

Generally if the unit gets shot at, it dies to the point of not being effective. The extra LD wouldent really matter that much. You would upgrade them for access to CCW or HWG and such.

That warrior squad is used as a decent anti-tank platform. Raider DL shoots at one thing, the Warrior DL/blaster shoot at another. You were looking a little light on AT.

I would go void lances on Bomber (and focus on AT duty), and keep the dissies on the Razorwing and use it as AI. Just played a game on the weekend where all those S6 blasts along with the AI shooting really helped.
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Nutcase5000
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Mon Dec 05 2016, 17:32

ah fair play thanks for ur input Smile

i got a rough draft idea tell me what u think. thinking of buying 2 venoms

8 Incubi with Archon (agnoiser, shadow feild) on a raider (Disintorgrator, NS)
8 Incubi with Drazhar on a raider (Disintorgrator, NS)

10 warriors  (splinter cannon) on a raider (DL, NS)
10 warriors  (splinter cannon) on a raider (DL, NS)
5 warriors on a venom with (x2 Splinter cannon)
5 warriors on a venom with (x2 Splinter cannon)

5 scourge ( x4 Blasters)
Razor wing (Disintorgrators, Splinter cannon)

x2 ravegers (6 DLs, NS)
Voidraven (void lance)

( I could also put 5 incubi in each venom and 6 incubi with both HQs in a raider insted, and put the 10 warriors in the other raider)


Last edited by Nutcase5000 on Mon Dec 05 2016, 18:37; edited 1 time in total
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Mon Dec 05 2016, 18:24

I still don't understand your approach to Incubi. They are way too expensive to just toss as ablative wounds as you have here, and almost anything, to the point of everything, that they can kill they are going to overkill, and that's really bad because it means that every turn those extraneous points aren't actually being brought to bear.

Why not 2 CAD's and take 4or5x3 incubi each with a klaivex? Your damage output will go up AND you'll be able to point at different targets.

Your Raider warrior squads are a bit wonkey. Mostly in that none of your upgrades for the squad or their boat synergize particularly well.

I don't really care about any of that, I strolled in to comment on your use of scourges. STAHP. Heavy on a JUMP platform is a waste since they aren't relentless. It's like putting an archon in a unit of Reaver jetbikes. It's also hella cost inefficient. You have an army that has a ton of light AV/Anti-TEQ. What you need now is the ability to point at av12+ and have it die. Lances only do that if you don't move. Haywire blasters accomplish it at 24" so long as they are alive and synergize much better with the rest of the things you want to put on the table.
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Nutcase5000
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Mon Dec 05 2016, 18:46

Opps ment to have blasters on the scourge not DLs

large squads of incubi sure they over kill if they assult at full stength but incubi tend to get targeted over other units, the large squads allow them to tank alot of shots and keep going, and most importantly stop shots from landing on the 2 HQs were as smaller units get killed off easyer and shots get to the HQs qwicker, i could split them into 3 units more targets to pick but they ll still get focused over other units and that just adds another kill point to the enemy,

not sure what u mean by "You have an army that has a ton of light AV/Anti-TEQ. What you need now is the ability to point at av12+ and have it die"?
perhaps 2 hwawire blasters and 2 blasters on the scourge is better? what about a heat lance insted of blasters? id have to get very close

BTW what is a CAD? and TEQ?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Mon Dec 05 2016, 19:05

That makes a huge difference. Blasters are a tad less efficient than haywire blasters or heat lances towards their preferred target, but provide far more universal utility.

If they are able to be focused down that simply means that you botched the approach. 3-man incubi squads is like the cup game, their vehicles should be mixed in with the rest of your vehicles which should should be tanking the brunt of punishment and closing the gap. Incubi squads, no matter the size, should be assaulting from their transport, smoking wreck or not. If your worried about your IC's getting picked off despite having a 2+ Look out sir your taking the wrong IC.

What I mean in that quote is that beginning turn 4 your incubi can glance almost any non-walker vehicle to death, you have 2 ravagers, A voidraven and all your raiders tuned towards dark light and anti-vehicle. I don't mind mixed squads in that manner just realize that while Haywire blasters only outrange blasters by 8" that window is one of the busiest in the game and at 18" or less a unit of scourges is exponentially more likely to die.

CAD: Combined Arms Detachment, a primary eligible detachment consisting of Force Organization (FOC) slots that you are probably most familiar with in terms of list building. It consists of: 1-2HQ's, 0-3 Elites, 2-6 Troops, 0-3 Fast Attack, 0-3 Heavy Support. It grants rerolls on warlord trait if primary, and Troops have the special rule Obsec.

TEQ: Terminator Equivalent. T4 2+.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Mon Dec 05 2016, 19:38

As others have said. Incubi work best in small squads working on their own. They are OK in CC, but have a hard time getting there. It becomes worse when you put expensive ICs in with them, since they become Target #1 to the enemy (and just dont have the toughness to take the punishment).

But try out a game or two and let us know how that list works in your META (which means the types of armies/lists that other people play with in your gaming group). Maybe in your area things like that will work well. We are just hypothesizing based on our experiences in our gaming groups Wink
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Nutcase5000
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Mon Dec 05 2016, 19:58

amorrowlyday

im talking about once incubi make their assult and kill a unit they usealy will always get targeted in the enemys following tern, or even if thier transport gets destroyed regardless of how u aproch them. alot of guns will have long enough range to chose the target

if u have the choice to shoot incubi or warriors ur almost always gona want to kill the ap2 melee sweeping advancing instana killing machines over a spray of shots from warriors perminatly on transports.

regarding hqs, having ur hqs last as long as possible is always good.
Say u got 4 incubi and a succubus or archon or what ever, enemy will target ur transport with them on, say it gets destroyed, its a small unit, a few ap2 shots or a large spray of light inf shots, hell even abit of overwatch = unit dead and probably ur HQ/warlord, same goes for when they finish a assult potentionaly 4 kill points in 1 Tern and the incubi+hq killed nothing or killed 1 enemy unit

now say u got large squad of incubi say 8 and ur HQ. a larger amount of enemy units will be needed to focus them and wipe out the unit so less shots on other things and usealy will not get destroyed in 1 tern, keeping HQ safe at the back of the unit and allowing them to get 2 or 3 terns in which they will kill multiplae enemy units myb more due to the rest of ur army thining the enemy out reduceing the amount of threat to them.

size allows them to last the fight till the enemys numbers are reduced to the point where ur enemy has less options to use to kill them, sure more squads of a smaller size of incubi allows more targets to attack and more chance of getting a unit into melee  and forces the enemy to split attacks onto more units of but ultimatly allows qwick and easy kill points for ur enemy. tho i ve tryed both over the years since the 5th.  larger squads of them i prefer and find overall more effective personaly but i will consider trying smaller units of incubi again. both defenitly have their advanteges and disadvanteges. i get what ur saying, alot of people agree with u i think both are viable.

im tempted  go for 2 haywire blasters and 2 blasters insted of 4 blasters but i cant rly decide lol.
what would u recomend for my scourge? rly not sure what to do with um

thanks for clariying all that for me and i aprciate ur input both of you Smile

BTW do u declare what units are in what transport to ur enemy? i always have in intrest of sporting play but i heard some people say they dont have to.
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Nutcase5000
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Mon Dec 05 2016, 20:10


i am defently new to DE 7th. 5th was my game

fisheyes

yeah i totaly get what ur saying and i will let u know how it goes, im rly liking the idea of Venoms atm with the 12 splinter cannnon shots. never rly looked at them b4. il try out putting incubi in them for 3 smaller incubi units and try out wariors in them ( so i can have my useaul 2 incubi larger squads in raiders)

Respect
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Can someone build me a list 2k   Mon Dec 05 2016, 21:38

@Nutcase5000 wrote:
im talking about once incubi make their assult and kill a unit they usealy will always get targeted in the enemys following tern, or even if thier transport gets destroyed regardless of how u aproch them. alot of guns will have long enough range to chose the target

That is precisely why optimal builds for CC units are built to take 2 turns to kill their target. It's the whole point of our ability to use furious charge: cripple on the charge, kill in their turn. You create the reality where they have a full turn to shoot at you because of the overkill.

@Nutcase5000 wrote:
if u have the choice to shoot incubi or warriors ur almost always gona want to kill the ap2 melee sweeping advancing instana killing machines over a spray of shots from warriors perminatly on transports.

Absolutely not. You prioritize that which is going to cost you the game. Since you only play kill points though I accept the fact that in your case your statement is always true.

@Nutcase5000 wrote:
regarding hqs, having ur hqs last as long as possible is always good.
Say u got 4 incubi and a succubus or archon or what ever, enemy will target ur transport with them on, say it gets destroyed, its a small unit, a few ap2 shots or a large spray of light inf shots, hell even abit of overwatch = unit dead and probably ur HQ/warlord, same goes for when they finish a assult potentionaly 4 kill points in 1 Tern and the incubi+hq killed nothing or killed 1 enemy unit

You're missing the point. Independent Characters, be them HQ choices or not, are either the sword, the shield, or the force multiplier for the unit you attach them to, and cannot be all at once, either due to being ill-suited for one of the roles as in the case of the Succubus, or being far too expensive as is the case of a truly tooled up archon. I feel similarly about drazhar but hey 2+ ymmv.

A Succubus with an archite glaive and the armour of misery is a 105 point's of offensive pain, while an Archon with a shadowfield is a 100pt bullet sponge. I'd even consider taking a gunslinger Haemonculus with stinger pistol, parasites kiss and a webwayportal and delay the charge until turn 3 where you'll be hitting with furious charge and becoming fearless turn 4.

@Nutcase5000 wrote:
now say u got large squad of incubi say 8 and ur HQ. a larger amount of enemy units will be needed to focus them and wipe out the unit so less shots on other things and usealy will not get destroyed in 1 tern, keeping HQ safe at the back of the unit and allowing them to get 2 or 3 terns in which they will kill multiplae enemy units myb more due to the rest of ur army thining the enemy out reduceing the amount of threat to them.

Your incubi squad is still less survivable than a tac squad. No matter how many different units you get to focus on the incubi squad they are still likely going to cost less in total than the squad itself, and anything that can kill a combat squad can probably kill another 3 marines. Unless your meta is radically different from the market at large and no one plays marines your unit has the unfortunate distinction of being weak to the exact same things as the most common infantry unit in the game. And in your case those weapons are more likely to cause wounds. Incubi are marine equivalents (MEQ) with huge swords. Since take all comers lists must by definition be able to kill marines with ease,  1 or 2 squads of incubi, no matter how large, are not threats at all. 6 squads on the other hand, even min squads, is a huge threat when it's detracting from other targets.

@Nutcase5000 wrote:
size allows them to last the fight till the enemys numbers are reduced to the point where ur enemy has less options to use to kill them, sure more squads of a smaller size of incubi allows more targets to attack and more chance of getting a unit into melee  and forces the enemy to split attacks onto more units of but ultimatly allows qwick and easy kill points for ur enemy. tho i ve tryed both over the years since the 5th.  larger squads of them i prefer and find overall more effective personaly but i will consider trying smaller units of incubi again. both defenitly have their advanteges and disadvanteges. i get what ur saying, alot of people agree with u i think both are viable.

Multicharge. 7th ed rules with regards to how the assault phase works, specifically multi-combats, make 3 squads of 3 of something that should be in CC better than a 9 person squad in every way except the kill points. I believe the increased utility is worth the cost of potential kill points.  

@Nutcase5000 wrote:
im tempted  go for 2 haywire blasters and 2 blasters insted of 4 blasters but i cant rly decide lol.
what would u recomend for my scourge? rly not sure what to do with um

If you don't know then 4 haywire. Mixing squads needs to be done intentionally and specifically because it makes the learning curve for that specific problem considerably higher.

@Nutcase5000 wrote:
thanks for clariying all that for me and i aprciate ur input both of you Smile

No problem!

@Nutcase5000 wrote:
BTW do u declare what units are in what transport to ur enemy? i always have in intrest of sporting play but i heard some people say they dont have to.

Absolutely. And you have an obligation to remind them which is which if they ask. You have absolutely no requirement to remind them to ask in the first place.

The reason I referred to min squads of incubi as akin to the cup game is that ideally they should be smattered throughout a sea of like boats positioned so that if you want to charge you have clear access, but if your opponent wants to charge they'll have to cut through some chaff as well. Your previous point about relative value of kabalits vs incubi if they have to charge the kabalites to reach the incubi.
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