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 New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer

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aurynn
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PostSubject: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 08:09

Well well... a Tankshock clarified... and brings us a new way to deal with powerful characters within units...
Quote :
Q: How does Tank Shock work when you stop on a unit? The rules state that the models ‘must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance’ – but what does this mean? The shortest distance that allows you to be in unit coherency? Or the shortest distance to just be out from under the vehicle, with models dying if not in unit coherency and at least 1" away from enemy units? What happens if a Gargantuan Creature or Monstrous Creature or any other non-vehicle unit gets Tank Shocked, but cannot move to another place in the shortest way? Are they destroyed or just moved further away?
A: Pick up only those models actively displaced by the Tank Shock, and place them on the battlefield with all models within unit coherency, as close as possible to their starting location and with no models within 1" of an enemy unit. Any models that cannot be placed in this way will be removed as casualties. If the whole unit is displaced, it will be moved together as above, and because of this it is impossible to remove an entire unit from play with a Tank Shock, unless the unit is unable to move; units that have Gone to Ground return to normal immediately, as it counts as being forced to move.
The models in tankshocked unit (be it a normal dude or a IC) are required to be placed within unit coherency. Therefore by using 1-3 vehicles (depending on size of the unit and surrounding terrain) you can block the available space within the coherency and tankshock the IC out of it - thus removing him as casualty without any right to any save and disregard Eternal Warrior...

This only works on units obviously as single models are simply moved shortest distance out, even if the shortest distance is 20''. But units (and ICs with them) must move within coherency.

Bikers, Centurions, etc... lovely way to remove them. Not without risk ofc, but still... What a hilarious way to remove a hero... giggity...
"I have a big mean Smashfucker here! He will destroy you and you cant kill hiiiim coz he has 2+/3++/3+FNP/Eternal Warrior... Blah blah..."
CRRRRUNCH! "Here you go... just take him off the table please..."

Post title edited. Please refrain from swearing - Count Adhemar
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 14:36

Hahaha! So basically, surround deathstar with a ring of individual Beastmasters 1" away from unit, then tank-shock a Raider in there.

Would that technically mean that the unit would then be removed from play? Or would they 'hop' the Beastmasters as that's the shortest way to maintain coherency?

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 14:41

I dont think this will work quite as you imagine. Remember that tank shock can only happen in the movement phase. And by moving your (I assume) shock prow raider, you open up a raider sized hole in your line where the enemy can jump to. It would need to be a VERY large squad, and you would need to have A LOT of blocking models around.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 15:22

A very large squad such as say... a wolfstar?

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 15:28

Wolfstar, bikestar, centstar, all have absolutely massive footprints due to body count which will flow out each which way like water through a cavity.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 16:13

All of these units have ablative wounds, who can easily take the Splat for any ICs. They get to choose what models move first, and you need to leave at least enough space for 1 model (otherwise they will just position outside your trap.

The only way I see this working is:

1 - The enemy is next to a (impassable) wall, and clumpted up so that you can corall them

2- You have 4 raiders within 12" of the entire blob

3 - 3 of your raiders move (in movement phase only) to surround the unit, keeping a small pocket available for 1-2 models to retreat to. Impassable terrain covers retreat from 4th side.

4 - 4th raider moves overtop of the unit (again in movement phase), forcing the entire unit to fall back. If raider survives, then he moves his expensive ICs first, then the rest of the chaff.

5 - Some chaff dies in your turn, then he turns around and kills all 4 raiders with his pissed-off ICs who survived.

I just dont really see this as an effective tactic. Am I missing something?
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Rhivan
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 17:27

Correct me if I'm wrong but I see MSU armies doing a lot better with a tactic like this. Drive some venoms (or raiders) to sorround a unit and get the Kabalites to form a nice soft wall with 1 or 2 exits then tank shock through said exits (If you could tank shock from both exits it's just cruel as oh well now they retreat into their imminent doom)

Reaver Jetbikes would also be a really good way to build the body wall. and of course this is all in the movement phase so anything that survives can get shot by the warriors, and charged by the reavers.

Well that's my take on it at least if anyone could correct me that'd be wonderful... Oh I so look forward to doing this to my friends Draigo...

Granted this tactic will be situational or take a LOT of planning to work, and I don't know how effectively it will work if we factor in our casualties the following turns... But it's a fun thought!
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 17:40

@Count - Sorry, I used it as terminus technicus, not a swearword. :-)

@Fisheyes - basically your execution is correct with one exception. You dont tankshock the entire unit. You tankshock just enough to get the ICs under or within 1'' of your shocking raider. My experience is that deathstars do not leave enough space inbetween its models to place even a single model there. Especially with big bases. So he has the models in his hand and simply cannot place them within coherency... :-)

You have to be careful not to displace a model that would free up a space for the IC to be placed.

I didnt say it is an universal method, but I doubt anyone will actually expect such a thing until it happens. :-)

@Rhivan - correct. However empty raiders are best IMO. Least value to lose given our increasing "power from pain". And mobile enough to get there. :-)

EDIT: I put Shock Prow everywhere to get the enemy units from cover by Tank Shocking, so its certainly good news for me. :-D
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 20:06

Hunh, it didnt occur to me that you could just tank shock a few individual models.

So this means you wrap the enemy squad with friendly troops (staying 1" away), and just leave enough space for the prow of a raider.

Raider moves in, displaces your target model.

Target model cannot be displaced, so is removed.

Hmm, some plotting must be done with this. I have been eyeing the extra length the shock prow gives to our transports....
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 20:14

There's a neat explanation over on Dakka using two tanks: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709084.page#9036437

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 20:31

Smashshocking?
Razz

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 20:33

Thx for the link Ynneadwraith. That is interesting how he words it. Makes it look easy to do using two raiders.

First raider creates a "wall" on one side, second raider makes a "T" to the firsts wall.

So in his example, the guys displaced during the second shock are "removed", because they cant maintain UNIT coherency? Because they can easily move into coherency with the unit (the UNIT just doesnt maintain coherency).

Something just looks off to me for some reason..
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Rhivan
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 20:34

We need our tanks to be...


This is all.

I'm sorry...
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 20:58

Hmmm, the wording of the FAQ states 'unit coherency', not 'coherency with the unit', so it might work like that Smile

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Wed Nov 23 2016, 22:01

Reread everything & I suck

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Thu Nov 24 2016, 15:58

So based on my reading of this ruling, "maintain UNIT coherency", makes this absolutely brutal.

After staying up late last night plotting around this new mechanic, it occured to me that this is a BIG nerf to the "conga line" tactic of avoiding blasts/flamers.

If someone strings their unit out at the maximum 2" distance between models, all you need to do is tank-shock any model(s) that is not on the edge of the unit. Because they are already at the 2" range, the displaced models cannot be placed back on the board "maintaining UNIT coherency", while simultaneously being more than 1" away from our hull, and is therefore "removed". All you need is a single tank.

I see a lot of 35 pt rhinos rolling around killing 3/4 of squads in this manner. We are also blessed with "cheap" tanks (at 65 pts with the shock prow) who have large foot-prints.

Am I mistaken in this?
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Thu Nov 24 2016, 16:18

Yeah this does seem brutal. Would also be a nerf to the conga-line of Kroot stretched out in front of a Fire Warrior gunline benefiting from Overwatch from every single unit in the Tau army...

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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Thu Nov 24 2016, 17:33

Can anyone else tell me why I am wrong in this? Otherwise it may be a good idea to start loading raiders with shock prow and *gasp* shredder?

Basically any blast/template to try and tempt the enemy to conga line, then Shock them into getting removed? I can see loosing a few friends this way Razz
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Thu Nov 24 2016, 20:38

And thus, a new strategy was born on the dark city this day. These "Smashing" lists as they came to be called changed the way Dark Eldar were played for the rest of 7th edition. Raiders and Ravagers saw more play then before these Faqs for a new age of tank shocking for the dark eldar has begun.

Sorry for adding nothing tactical to the thread xD What do you guys think would be effective for a list that tries to make the most out of tank shocking (Or at least uses the strategy within our current builds?)

Another question is do you think the situational benefit of tankshocking would be cause enough for people to stop (or use less) of venoms? As a Raider with a shockprow costs just as much as a venom. Granted the Dis Cannon would be useful against MEQs and TEQs.
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Thu Nov 24 2016, 21:57

I already run 100pt squads with a shredder and a base raider instead of venoms. As soon as IA11 hit and I became able to take sqauds that can move 12" and fire 3 splinter cannons at full bs for a grand total of 75 points in corsair allies I stopped giving my troops venoms.

While dissies have some overlap they are straight up better against actual meq and more importantly against bike meq, and if the raw troop killing power of splinter cannons can be found elsewhere then taking them on troops we want on objectives or within ~18'' of a unit feels like a waste.

Now that tank shock has been clarified I have 0 qualms about paying the premium per squad to be able to tank shock and ram at av14. Don't get me wrong I do think that the lesser upgrade that only confers tank shock is probably better, but if I'm already getting it then I will absolutely pay the difference to be able to insta-kill stormsurges.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Fri Nov 25 2016, 08:34

@amorrowlyday wrote:
I'm already getting it then I will absolutely pay the difference to be able to insta-kill stormsurges.
It cant be used to instagib a single model (provided I remember correctly that Stormsurges come as single model units) if I read it right, coz single model is always able to move to some safe spot even if the spot is 20'' away as long as it is the shortest distance. However you can displace it in more favourable position. :-)

As for the lists that benefit from this the most - its obviously assault lists as you can easily push units from cover. Also lists that lack some AT for some reason.

@fisheyes wrote:
Because they are already at the 2" range, the displaced models cannot be placed back on the board "maintaining UNIT coherency", while simultaneously being more than 1" away from our hull, and is therefore "removed".
I think you misunderstand. The displaced models will be moved shortest distance to maintain coherency with the largest part of the "divided" unit. However the smaller part cannot do anything else than start moving towards the larger part to get to coherency next turn. Which will take them just moving a few models actually.

Better use of this I think is to tankshock them out of cover, charge them with something, and they will have to start piling in... Perhaps tank shocking them out of range of that combined overwatch ability. :-)
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Fri Nov 25 2016, 08:51

@Rhivan wrote:

Another question is do you think the situational benefit of tankshocking would be cause enough for people to stop (or use less) of venoms? As a Raider with a shockprow costs just as much as a venom. Granted the Dis Cannon would be useful against MEQs and TEQs.

No need to forfeit the venoms for raiders if you don't want to since venoms can tank shock with the chain snare upgrade. I do hope raider spam is going to become a thing though.

@aurynn wrote:
@amorrowlyday wrote:
I'm already getting it then I will absolutely pay the difference to be able to insta-kill stormsurges.
It cant be used to instagib a single model (provided I remember correctly that Stormsurges come as single model units) if I read it right, coz single model is always able to move to some safe spot even if the spot is 20'' away as long as it is the shortest distance. However you can displace it in more favourable position. :-)
I believe he is thinking about the ruling in the TAU faq draft where it states that an anchored storm surge is destroyed if tank shocked, since it can't move.


Last edited by Scrz on Fri Nov 25 2016, 08:55; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I had more to say)
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Fri Nov 25 2016, 09:34

@aurynn wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
Because they are already at the 2" range, the displaced models cannot be placed back on the board "maintaining UNIT coherency", while simultaneously being more than 1" away from our hull, and is therefore "removed".
I think you misunderstand. The displaced models will be moved shortest distance to maintain coherency with the largest part of the "divided" unit. However the smaller part cannot do anything else than start moving towards the larger part to get to coherency next turn. Which will take them just moving a few models actually.

Better use of this I think is to tankshock them out of cover, charge them with something, and they will have to start piling in... Perhaps tank shocking them out of range of that combined overwatch ability. :-)

Does it state anywhere in the rules that if a unit is tank-shocked, the units are moved into coherency with the largest part of the unit?

RAW states 'Unit Coherency'. In Fisheyes' example the unit cannot retain coherency, so as per the FAQ the units would be removed.

TBH it'd be more successful, given the base sizes for tanks and such, to do it with two successive tank shocks as per this example: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709084.page#9036437

I do think that it's very situational at best, but aren't all the most entertaining strategies? Tank-shocking a unit out of cover for an assault would have a lot more applications, especially seeing as most of our assault units should really be in Raiders anyway...

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Last edited by Ynneadwraith on Fri Nov 25 2016, 09:51; edited 1 time in total
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Fri Nov 25 2016, 09:40

@Scrz - didnt know that! Nice one!
@Ynneadwraith - yer right - both parts of the unit have to move into coherency ASAP. Does not matter much though. EDIT2: Oh, now I see what you mean. But the models re-moved are just those under the vehicle. And those will probably be able to move within coherency. Models that are not directly under the vehicle remain where they are and begin to solve their coherency problem at their turn.

Well I have given up on Poison shooting in large part. Its pretty situational. Dissies + Shock prow beats Venom, and it beats LanceRaider too IMO. Bodies... bodies that increase their power as game progresses. Raider with racks and warriors may cost more, but I think it brings oh-so-much more. Not talking about wyches. I know people hate them, but they are one of the best assault units in the game for the cost... You just need to think and plan much more. Tank Shocking in general does alleviate our assault weakness - cover-hidden units.

Ramming gives us basically an autohit at S7, which is IMO better at wrecking transports than a single S8 shot that has 30% chance not to hit.

Okay... now... question. The rulebook says that a vehicle can tank-shock instead of movement. It also says I cannot flat-out LATER in turn... but it does not say that I cannot do it moving flat-out... right? There is no restriction as to the phase when the tank-shock has to occur. Nor does it say it cannot do it while flat-outing as long as I do not flat out again LATER... Opinions?

LOL! Armour of Misery, Shadowseer with that -2LD helm and (if we could tank-shock with flat-out move) Death Jester... you can make any Deathstar fall back - so no Death or Glory

Not mentioning multi-shocking units within the LD debuff bubble, making them just fall back (and with regroup only stand and fire snapshots next turn)...

Well my fellow Archons... time to get really aggressive!

EDIT: BRB under Flat-Out - A Tank cannot move Flat Out in the same turn that it performs a Tank Shock. Shame. But still. Twisted Evil
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - Smashfacing the Smashfacer   Fri Nov 25 2016, 13:05

@aurynn, nowhere does it say to do tank shocks as you described (although that would make more sense TBH). RAW, I believe I am correct in my interpretation. Can you provide any references to disprove my theory?

Also, tank shock must be done in the movement phase, not during flat out. BRB (dont know the exact passage).

@ynneadwraith, I saw your dakka reference, but the first tank may be unnessisary. The only purpose of the first tank is to create an "impassible wall" so that the unit cannot just move around the prow of the second tank. If the unit is already at its max 2" spacing, there is no need for this "wall", since they are already restricted in their movement. A single tank will be able to ensure that the models covered "cannot maintain UNIT coherency".

I know many players who like to do the conga line. I think this will be a medium boon to us, and a massive buff to SM Battle Co. I can only think of the damage they can do with 10+ free rhino tanks *shudders*

Just need to figure out how to keep the enemy spaced out, or punish them whenever they bunch up.
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