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 Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.

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smith1186
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PostSubject: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Thu Nov 17 2016, 01:57

I dropped by FLGS today and saw a dude playing the Cults. He was doing a great job ripping a Salamander player to shreds and dominating the board by turn 2. Now granted, this guy was a seasoned player and knows the In's and Out's of 40k.

He was telling me about how broken the Genestealer ambush rules are and to be honest, I really dont think they are.

Its an ambush that relies on a random roll AFTER you make a successful reserve roll (unless arriving from ongoing reserves). Once you arrive (if you rolled a 1-5 on the ambush table) the unit CANNOT charge and this is an army that needs to be in combat to win. Basically I'll get a turn to shoot at them which for DE is like going to a religious ceremony, there just isn't enough pain to dish out. They'll also arrive outside of 6" so they'll be close and if they have flamers or Demo charges then it'll be rough but manageable.

If the cult player rolls a 6 on the ambush table then he can arrive from reserve in my face and charge a unit, so yeah that's bad news but he still has to roll a 6, otherwise i get a turn to shoot.

Now he went on about the Return from Shadows rule meaning that ANY unit of his with the rule and go into Ongoing Reserve from any part of the board which yeah, he can run some nasty reserve shenanigans BUT he would have to forgo his shooting and assault phase. You can only go into Ongoing Reserve in your movement phase. Also, if he is within 6" of one of my units, he cannot go into ongoing reserves.

The Genestealer Cults have some nasty melee weapons BUT they still have to get into combat. Now of course he will get a few rolls of a 6 on the ambush table and get into combat fast. However, having units to sacrifice to the enemy is a crux to the DE strategy. He could potentially assassinate a unit of his choosing if he rolls a 6 to ambush which we will just have to deal with.

Then there is the armies toughness and save which are T3 and 5+ armor, sound familiar?

Basically, a Genestealer Cult player has the opportunity to run some great reserve shenanigans but countering with a good castle deployment and blasting his units away with excess splinter fire will leave his army leveled.

They are an army that needs to be in CC to play to their advantage and they can get very close very quickly... But we cant turbo boost across the board in a turn with most of our army and then bring the pain back on to him.

I can also definitely see a Covens army ruining the Genestealer strategy, a Grotesqueri or two and some Dark Artisan are just not what they wanna see.

Also, if the Genestealer players tries to abuse Return to Shadows for most of his units leaving only one or two units in hiding, then they will leave themselves open to being easily tabled if we take out the remaining units on the board.

That is all just IMHO, what do the rest of you think?

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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Thu Nov 17 2016, 04:42

I think that castling in the corner behind a CTC would make the 6's they roll for their reserve thing useless. Some Venoms, maybe a DA to support, and I think you can roll just about any GSC army that I know of. Just need some AT somewhere. Maybe Scourges

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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Thu Nov 17 2016, 06:01

The 6's arent scary to Deldar 5's are, a free shooting attack on us is why they are a major threat.
That combined with being cheap enough per model to shrug off losses, make for a scary time. when fighting them hope you have first turn if not they have a solid chance to neuter you.

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smith1186
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Thu Nov 17 2016, 09:23

@Grimcrimm wrote:
The 6's arent scary to Deldar 5's are, a free shooting attack on us is why they are a major threat.
That combined with being cheap enough per model to shrug off losses, make for a scary time. when fighting them hope you have first turn if not they have a solid chance to neuter you.

Considering that their BS3 across the board and have a low number of shooting attacks (Seismic Cannon has only 2 shots) and our Jink save, I don't think so.

The two main shooty units in their army are the Acolyte and Neophyte Hybrids. Between them, the Neophyte Hybrids bring the majority of the shooting threat for their army. The rest of their army is mostly CC oriented.

Now if a Neophyte Hybrid Squad comes on an Ambush roll of a 5 after making a successful reserve roll... the yeah, ur probably gonna lose a unit. But big woop, we're supposed to lose units in our MSU style armies. If he shoots with them (in the shooting phase), that means they will stay on the board and be exposed to your attacks and i don't see a T3, 5+ save unit lasting long to loads of rapid fire splinter weapons.

They do have a couple of nasty shooting weapons BUT they have low shot numbers and need 4's to hit and we still have our jink saves. Its like bringing Astra Militarum but with a lot less shooting attacks.

I think I may finally make use of some counter charge Hellions against these guys, just as a good challenge for myself!

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smith1186
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Thu Nov 17 2016, 09:38

Two very important considerations for The Cult Ambush USR and Return from Shadows USR.

As i read more closely about these rules, the more i like them.

This info is taken from BattleScribe so please feel free to check the Genestealer Dex to confirm.

Cult Ambush
Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or that arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can chose to roll on the Cult Ambush table instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally. Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the movement phase. Units cannot use the cult ambush special rule whilst they are embarked inside a vehicle. (Codex: Genestealer Cults p96)

So they still have to follow normal rules for arriving from reserve. Cult Ambush is not a special Reserve move but a special way to deploy from Reserve (or ongoing reserve)

Return to Shadows
Instead of moving in the movement phase, any unit with this special rule that is not within 6" of any enemy models, can be removed from the battlefield and placed into Ongoing Reserve. A unit cannot Return to the Shadows in the same turn it arrives from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, and cannot do so whilst embarked in a vehicle. (Codex: Genestealer Cults p96)

So, if a Genestealer player tries to tell you can Ambush on and Return off in the same turn, tell him to flip to page 96 of his Dex and read his rules more closely.

Arriving with the Ambush rule is still arriving from Reserves and and you can't Return to shadows in the same turn that the unit arrives from reserve.

Dont forget that a unit cant charge in the same turn that it arrives from Reserves (unless they roll a 6 on the Ambush table).

BRING THE PAIN!!!

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Thu Nov 17 2016, 13:13

How did you get that from BattleScribe? Mine isn't working anymore...
I'll try those tactics against two buddies of mine that bought this army. Thanks
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Thu Nov 17 2016, 14:00

My understanding is that the basic rules for Cult Ambush and Return to the Shadows are as described above BUT they have access to formations etc that give them bonuses on the rolls or otherwise make the more effective.

I don't have the codex however so I'm just going on what I read elsewhere.

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Thu Nov 17 2016, 16:11

I will agree with OP. We are not the paper to their scissors, more like another scissor.

We dont care about loosing 1-2 units to a suprise charge of 20 Genestealers. We just jump into our transports and move to the other end of the table. Slowly they will loose board presence (since they will want to be moving in/out of reserve, probably with about 10-20% of their army off the board after Turn 2), and we will not.

MSU FTW
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Thu Nov 17 2016, 23:10

Just got an awesome bit of news from the 40k facebook page about all this.

Basically, a rules expert replied to my query and the 40k guys on the page signed off on his interpretation.

You can read it all here.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1722916854695613&id=1575682476085719

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Fri Nov 18 2016, 10:44

Great news!
So when the opponent is putting too few troops on the table at first, we have the whole turn one to table him.
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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Sat Nov 19 2016, 19:40

@CptMetal wrote:
Great news!
So when the opponent is putting too few troops on the table at first, we have the whole turn one to table him.

They arrive during infiltration you wont be tabling a GSC player unless they are "unwise" enough to be constantly returning to shadows.

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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Sat Nov 19 2016, 20:47

First off, I don't think there's any reason particularly to worry about GSC any more than any other army.

I do think you all are not really considering how they will be building their forces. Many GSC players will be turning to the calcavade to anchor them to the board via Leman Russ tanks and neophytes in chimeras and perhaps a doting throng for neophytes in a zealot bubble. Also, it seems there are some vocal players putting heavy flamers on scout sentinels as they gain cult ambush via the formation. Heavy flamers on outflanking chimeras will happen too. There's the option of a good deal of strength 5+ shooting coming out of this formation. (Mainly multi lasers, heavy bolters, whatever the player loads their russes with).

The first curse formation is interesting in that if the broodlord doesn't get a 6 on the warlord trait table they most likely will have to spend at least one turn on the board trying to get a charge in and it will take fire if not locked in combat. The thing is the twenty man unit of stealers with stealth and a 5++ can weather a great deal of shooting (at least in my experience having run the formation 5 times or so). Another thing to watch for it mutli-charging units and also surrounding transports and instantly destroying the unit inside. This formation also has a massive footprint on the table when the game starts. Also, this formation has a 12 fearless bubble around it from the Patriarch.

I expect most GSC forces to use the subterranean uprising in most matches. The formation grants the units composing it inflitrate so they may arrive from CA during deployment, as well as granting extra dice on the CA table. I expect to see a few hand flamers scattered in these units due to multiple rolls on the CA chart. On the plus, outside of metaphors with wips our units will strike in combat either before or at the same time as these int 4 units. Also, much like DE they don't have much in the way of armor saves.

Lastly, GSC have a chance at summoning and with the insurrection detachment they regain d6 guys when they come back out of a cult ambushed. Something ,to keep in mind with target priority.

I think the insurrection detachment will make for stong builds maybe not top tier but, I look forward to seeing how these guys work in 1850 matches.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Sun Nov 20 2016, 09:03

You seem to be missing the MSU builds... when you can put down 30 units of models all of which have rending and then roll ambush for every one of them - you will get charged and shot ALOT with no recourse

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Sun Nov 20 2016, 09:56

Yeah the MSU build is the most deadly. For us and most other armies.

Do not underestimate the power of summoning your choice of unit, with your choice of wargear, wherever you want it either.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Sun Nov 20 2016, 23:01

Played this cult nonsense, grotesqurie did some massive work.
Too much de shooting before he can reach you. Tough but definitely beatable
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Mon Nov 21 2016, 14:54

@Painjunky wrote:
Yeah the MSU build is the most deadly. For us and most other armies.

Do not underestimate the power of summoning your choice of unit, with your choice of wargear, wherever you want it either.

My friend is doing his build around the summoning squads psychic powers. It would be nasty if it goes off, but it's such a gamble.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Tue Nov 22 2016, 05:30

You dont need summoning when you can simply spam the 6ppm 'I cant believe its not a stealer' models in a formation with the primus for 3d6 rolls on the chart

Minimum squads and max out the charts and formations and you WILL get charged straight off the bat with no options other than pray

getting 20 units in the army is easy and then stacking odds of charging from deployment means you should be very worried if someone builds it right

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Tue Nov 22 2016, 12:56

@Massaen wrote:
You dont need summoning when you can simply spam the 6ppm 'I cant believe its not a stealer' models in a formation with the primus for 3d6 rolls on the chart

Minimum squads and max out the charts and formations and you WILL get charged straight off the bat with no options other than pray

getting 20 units in the army is easy and then stacking odds of charging from deployment means you should be very worried if someone builds it right

I guess it depends on the point limit you play too. My friends and I rarely play more than 1500pts, but yes, playing against a half decent GSC list means getting assaulted turn 1. We just need to make sure every unit that gets that close doesn't get a 2nd turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Wed Nov 23 2016, 14:57

Meh, with a 12" movement, then an 18" flat-out, I am not worried about too many charges. If they want to charge a unit of warriors that just lost their raider/venom, I will not shed any tears.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Sun Dec 04 2016, 00:50

Well I get to put my tactics where my mouth is on Monday.

The dude i've been eyeing for a game against Genestealer Cults has agreed to duke it out with my True Kin.

He's big on taking the Genestealer 'Decurion' formations so his whole army will have Infiltrate and will mess with reserve rolls.

However, since the FAQ gave our skimmers their beef back, I'll be taking full advantage of that AND bringing some Shredders for when he gets nice and close (which there is no way of avoiding against Genestealers).




Here is the list I am taking if any of you are curious,

(List Edit, 7:40pm, 12/3/16)
Formation: Realspace Raiders

HQ
Archon (165pts) (WARLORD)
Helm of Spite
Blaster
Venom with Dual Splin Cannon


Troops
x10 Kabalites (170pts)
x1 Shredder
Raider w/ Splinter Racks and Night Shields

x5 Kabalites
x1 Shredder
Venom w/ Dual Splin Can

x5 Kabalites
x1 Shredder
Venom w/ Dual Splin Can

x5 Kabalites
x1 Shredder
Venom w/ Dual Splin Can


Fast Attack
x6 Reavers (146pts)
x2 Blasters
x2 Cluster

x6 Reavers (146pts)
x2 Blasters
x2 Cluster Caltrops

x6 Reavers (146pts)
x2 Blasters
x2 Cluster Caltrops

x6 Reavers (146pts)
x2 Blasters
x2 Cluster Caltrops


Heavy Support
Ravager (125pts)
w/ x3 Dark Lances

Ravager (125pts)
w/ x3 Dark Lances

Total Points: 1499

LET THE AGONY FLOW!!!!

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Rhivan
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Sun Dec 04 2016, 01:59

While I see the use here, don't you think list tailoring skews the results? I mean if you have an all-comers list and take it against the Genestealers you clearly going to get different results then this one.

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Sun Dec 04 2016, 03:45

You mean NOT take advantage of the situation AS a Dark Eldar player?

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Sun Dec 04 2016, 19:44

This is a farily TAC list actually...

Not sure if the extra Reaver squad is worth loosing out on ObSec on 4 transports full of warriors.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Sun Dec 04 2016, 19:50

When I said it was tailoring I was about the taking Shedders part,as I don't seem them often in lists. I should've asked if you take them normally and clarified on that part, the rest I will admit is pretty TAC.

As for taking advantage of the situation while I can understand the reasoning why, sometimes we just don't have the opportunity to prepare.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer Cults... Im really not that worried.   Sun Dec 04 2016, 20:12

@Rhivan wrote:
When I said it was tailoring I was about the taking Shedders part,as I don't seem them often in lists. I should've asked if you take them normally and clarified on that part, the rest I will admit is pretty TAC.

The Shredders are modification to my generic list. Overall, the list itself is a variation of my 'Death By A Thousands Cuts' list, which still takes 4 warrior squads, 4 reaver squads and 2 Ravagers.

I did swap out the usual Lhamean for an Archon with the Helm of Spite to give me anti-psyker capabilities (Which Genestealers bring a lot of) and from watching how Genestealers play, I decided to give my Kabalites the Shredders instead of blasters.

I dont know the exact list the guy will bring but he likes to run the Genestealer Decurion. However, he is also a very seasoned player and I'd imagine he's tweaking his list to counter DE.

@fisheyes wrote:
Not sure if the extra Reaver squad is worth loosing out on ObSec on 4 transports full of warriors.

Yeah well... I really want to spam the Reaver squads and see what happens!

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