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Veragon Saan
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PostSubject: Basic Strategy   Sun Nov 13 2016, 14:42

Hello all

New DE player here, only recently started collecting them.
I'm currently ruling over a 1000 point Kabal consisting of:
2 Raiders, 5 Scourges, 20 Warriors, 10 Wyches, 1 Archon, 1 Succubus, 3 Reaver jetbikes

As Christmas is approaching now is a good time to bulk out my army, so what do you all suggest?
I was already thinking of a getting a Talos/Cronos and a Razorwing

I commonly play against: Tau, Marines and Necrons

So far my tactics mainly consist of blasterborn appearing via deepstrike (non scattering) and whooping whatever heavy tank the enemy has, Scourges to take out transports, Wyches to race in with the Succubus and do what they do best vs any basic infantry, jetbikes just to be a pain in the butt (and I need them so I can use the free formation) and the other squad of warriors for objectives and support.

What do you all suggest?

Thanks


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greenterror88
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PostSubject: Welcome!   Mon Nov 14 2016, 00:33

Welcome to the Dark Eldar! The Razorwing and Talos are both excellent choices to expand your army. I mainly play against Necrons as well and the Talos are excellent against them.

Looking at what your main opponents play my next suggestion would be to pick up a couple of Ravagers. They are a solid gun boats and can run with 3 lances or 3 disintegrator cannons to eat through marine or necron infantry.
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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 01:22

Wyches are generally considered a weak unit; I'd look into some alternate escort for your Succubus. Either convert up some Grotesques (Fantasy Vargheists or other base model of your choice + leftover Talos bits) or pick up a box of Incubi.

Taloi/Razorwings are both nice choices, but I'd probably go for Venoms before that. 5 Warrior/Venom units are wonderful.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 07:20

@Veragon Saan wrote:
Wyches to race in with the Succubus and do what they do best vs any basic infantry

Die horribly? Very Happy

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 11:22

What Wyches do best is fail at everything. I would happily describe them as the single worst unit in the game, not just in our army. They are entirely useless, and will crumble against any opponent. Do not bother with them.

From the look of what you've planned, it looks like you can easily get 10 Warriors in each Raider, and get SPlinter Racks on them to be a decent gun boat.
If you're planning Blasterborn, you'll need Tureborn Warriors for that, and I would advice having them in a Venom (or having more than one). Remember though that they DO scatter. They only don't if a character with Webway Portal joins them.

At 1000pts, I don't think its worth having both an Archon AND a Succubus either.
I would be tempted to drop one, also the Wyches, and replace them with a Dark Artisan formation.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 12:26

As someone who regularly plays vs necrons, the Dark Artesian is perhapse the best unit we have. Many a time it has WWP'ed in beside a warrior blob and just wrecked face. Without a doubt my MVP (vs necrons anyway. I bet grav guns would make it cry though)
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 13:33

The Dark Artisan never failed me. I think this is the best formation available in our codex. It's mere presence in the reserve pool alter the course of game. Ennemy don't want to castle too much, to avoid the DA locking half his army in close combat when it comes. And having a splitted army is good for us.

For it to work best, don't forget to let your opponent know how it's strong and unkillable and a better formation than his owns. He'll take it as a challenge.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 15:24

Haha, yes the psychological effect it has is not to be underestimated. TBH it doesnt put out TOO much damage (just a S3 flamer and 6 poison shots), and in CC the Talos is the only thing that really wrecks stuff.

But when you are ignoring difficult terrain (MC), DS without scatter (WWP), then flaming something with AP3 and causing LD checks (with -1 LD) it can really cause headaches. 3+ 4+++ (hopefully with some nice 5+ cover) can be difficult to deal with if they dont have a lot of plasma or grav
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Veragon Saan
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 15:39

Thank you fellow denizens,

What is the Dark Artisan formation? I've not come across it before. I know of the Purge Cortrie (the free one you get with the starter set) and the Kabalite Raiding Party (the one in the rules) but not that one?

I see a general theme that you don't like Wyches? What in particular don't you like about them? And why would Incubi be better (as they are more expensive and still T3)

I was indeed running the Blasterborn as Trueborn, 4 with blasters 5 with splinter rifles and the Archon all in a raider with a WWP so that I could pop up and wreck something.

What would be the advantages of a Venom over a Raider? As the capacity would mean I couldn't fit the Archon in and I wouldn't be able to take a Dark Lance (which I find very useful for picking off irritating things like the thunderfire cannon the marine player always brings)

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 17:04

@Veragon Saan wrote:
Thank you fellow denizens,

What is the Dark Artisan formation? I've not come across it before. I know of the Purge Cortrie (the free one you get with the starter set) and the Kabalite Raiding Party (the one in the rules) but not that one?

The Dark Artisan is a formation of a single unit made of 1 haemonculus, 1 talos and 1 cronos. Being in the same unit, you can equip your haemy with a WWP and drop it 2 inch away from your ennemy. It's a REALLY tough unit. Very hard to kill. But it's not VERY deadly by itself. But it just won't die. (except from few things, like poison and grav gun).

@Veragon Saan wrote:

I see a general theme that you don't like Wyches? What in particular don't you like about them? And why would Incubi be better (as they are more expensive and still T3)

The problem is not really the toughness. The dark eldar are designed to be fragile. The problem is the lack of damage output. With S3 and no PA, even if you land a lot of hit, it will be hard to wound the ennemy.
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Veragon Saan
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 18:31

@dumpeal wrote:


The Dark Artisan is a formation of a single unit made of 1 haemonculus, 1 talos and 1 cronos. Being in the same unit, you can equip your haemy with a WWP and drop it 2 inch away from your ennemy. It's a REALLY tough unit. Very hard to kill. But it's not VERY deadly by itself. But it just won't die. (except from few things, like poison and grav gun).

Ohh I see, well I currently posses none of those models so that's a small problem! Does it cost points or do you get it for free? (And where are the rules for it?)

Hmm I suppose you have a point, but you'll get more attacks with the Wyches plus more wounds to soak up hits and the 4++ in CC helps, where as Incubi just have their armour
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 19:26

The Dark Artesian (commonly known as the DA) costs about 350 pts after you upgrade it. The rules for it are in the Covens suppliment (along with the Grotesquery formation, our other "Best" formation). You can find them on Battlescribe.

The reason to take a Venom is that it puts out a lot of fire, and it has a 5++ save that it can use even against "ignores cover" fire (unlike jinking).

Wyches are universally hated for numerous reasons, but lets see if I can summerize them.
1 They cost more than warriors.
2 They are T3 and will almost never get their FnP roll
3 They dont have any weapons with (good) AP
4 They dont have Haywire grenades as options

Incubi can hit at I6 with an AP2 weapon, but unfortunately they still fail at points 1,2,4. Grotesques (especially Grotesquery grotesques) have T5, about 8 attacks on the charge, S5 (rerolling to wound VS T4 enemies), ID on 6's, and all sorts of further bonuses if you take the formation.
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Veragon Saan
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 20:05

Ahh thank you for that fisheyes,
I feel I may need to get the Haemonculus Covens supplement then, problem is I don't have any Coven related models, yet.

Hmm I can see that would be attractive about Venoms, but its pathetic hull points means it would go down to a single round of bolter fire right?

Okay I can see your point about Wyches but Grotesques are pretty expensive as an alternative aren't they? For equivalent points the Wyches put out 30 attacks on the charge to the Grotesques 12 plus they aren't troops (which is the other reason I had Wyches in my initial 1000 point army)
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 20:16

TBH, everyone plays different. I have once used wyches effectively (tying up a blob of necron warriors), but even in that situation Grots would have been better.

As for comparison, take a look through the Tactics forum. I did a thread comparing the assault effectiveness of our units. It basically boiled down to "Lhamean, Grots, Incubi, Khameara" in the amount of wounds inflicted/point cost. Grots put out a LOT of damage when used correctly. They are also hard as F to kill (without dedicated fire). Both things wyches cannot do.

Yes, everything in our army is afraid of bolter fire. Venoms are no different, other than out-ranging the bolters (24" vs 36")

Last thing, the Coven units are great for doing conversion work. Pick up a Talos box and a unit of Fantasy Crypt Horrors, and bash them together. I guarantee you will have fun, and the unit will look great. You will even save a few bucks.
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Veragon Saan
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Mon Nov 14 2016, 20:37

Ahh wonderful I will have to check that out, thank you. (And will undoubtedly throw you some more questions once I have)

It has to be said I got halfway through that reply before I realised that Grot stood for Grotesque rather than the small gretchin like creature in the Orkoid society...

In that case perhaps I will just throw 5 Wyches in a Venom and use them to pinch objectives and leave the real work to other guys and girls.

Well maybe the best thing is just to get a Venom and see what happens when I play with one of my mates.

Yeah I can see they would make awesome conversions, although I bet you could have a lot of fun making a unit of Lhameans


EDIT: I can't find said thread, can you link it to me?
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Basic Strategy   Tue Nov 15 2016, 14:54

Sure. Here is both the Shooting and the CC analysis.

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t13836-assault-troop-analysis

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t14287-shooting-weapon-analysis

Both are worth a look through, just to get a feel for which units are "Point Efficient" at what they do. Just take this with a grain of salt, since these numbers are taken in a vacuum, and dont take into account a number of factors (such as getting into range, charging through cover, etc)
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