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 Upgrading a weapon specialist to Champion

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Upgrading a weapon specialist to Champion   Thu Nov 10 2016, 17:28

So I was trying to do some changes to my DE list I usually play and this struck me...

Across the book there is the same wording (Warriors, Trueborn, Wyches, Bloodbrides, Wracks, Grots, Reavers, Hellions, Scourges), as in this example:

One Kabalite Warrior may take an item from the Special Weapons List.
and
One Kabalite Warrior may be upgraded to a Sybarite.

A Kabalite with Special/Heavy weapon (Reaver with HL and CC, etc.) is still a Kabalite Warrior, ergo can be upgraded to a Sybarite... A special weapon guy with LOS!.

I have looked in other dexes I have and found only one that does not have automatic champs - ORKS. But here is the thing - there is specifically said that one OTHER Ork Boy than the special weapon guy can be upgraded to champ...

Thoughts on that?
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Maple Tiishay
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PostSubject: Re: Upgrading a weapon specialist to Champion   Thu Nov 10 2016, 20:01

I also had a similar situation come up recently. For me I was squeezing some wyches into a harlequin list and was hoping I could give the hekatrix a wych cult weapon. My opponents argument was this: you start at the top of the data slate and work your way down through the purchases/upgrades and the upgrade to hekatrix comes before the "x wyches can take from wyches cult weapons" selection. I wasn't satisfied with this but played it anyways

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Upgrading a weapon specialist to Champion   Thu Nov 10 2016, 21:03

I'd ask him to show you that rule in the book...

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Upgrading a weapon specialist to Champion   Thu Nov 10 2016, 21:56

Exactly. :-) According to his logic I cant put in the list 5 warriors, buy them 1 blaster and then decide to upgrade them to Trueborn?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Upgrading a weapon specialist to Champion   Thu Nov 10 2016, 22:09

A similar question was asked in the Space Marine FAQ and GW initially said it was okay but then changed their minds!

Personally I don't think it breaks any rules but it seems to cause a lot of arguments!

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Upgrading a weapon specialist to Champion   Fri Nov 11 2016, 05:47

Well I guess its different for SMs as their wording and initial unit composition is different with sarge being automatic. So I have the same opinion. This actually makes our champions worth something!
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Upgrading a weapon specialist to Champion   Fri Nov 11 2016, 19:33

Well, the SM FAQ actually has a similar question.

For the Command Squad, it gives you the options to give each of the veterans special weapons. It then allows you to upgrade a veteran to an Apothicary. The Apothicary comes equiped with just a bolter and CCW can cant take any further upgrades.

The question was along the lines of "can I give a veteran a grav gun, then upgrade him to an Apothicary, thereby allowing the Apothicary to take a grav gun without breaking any rules?"

The answer there was YES. If the Mereeens can do it, why cant we?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Upgrading a weapon specialist to Champion   Sat Nov 12 2016, 07:58

@fisheyes wrote:
Well, the SM FAQ actually has a similar question.

For the Command Squad, it gives you the options to give each of the veterans special weapons. It then allows you to upgrade a veteran to an Apothicary. The Apothicary comes equiped with just a bolter and CCW can cant take any further upgrades.

The question was along the lines of "can I give a veteran a grav gun, then upgrade him to an Apothicary, thereby allowing the Apothicary to take a grav gun without breaking any rules?"

The answer there was YES. If the Mereeens can do it, why cant we?

Unfortunately, if you read the comments on the GW Facebook page, they subsequently changed the answer to that question to No.

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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Upgrading a weapon specialist to Champion   Sat Nov 12 2016, 09:13

Is it just the extra wound that is of benefit for a special weapon/sybarite? They don't even have higher BS which I think is a little cruel...

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Upgrading a weapon specialist to Champion   Sat Nov 12 2016, 10:50

The key difference her eis stat-line. The stat-line lists four model types - Kabalite Warrior, Sybarite, Kabalite Trueborn and Dracon.
As I see it, when you upgrade a Kabalite Warrior to a Sybarite, he is now a different thing. He has a new stat-line as a diffent model type, and is not a Kabalite Warrior, therefore can not take options listed as only for Kabalite Warriors.

THis would the same for the marine Command Squad. When you upgrade to Apothecary, you have a new model type, and are not a.......whatever they were before.


(Note, I see a distinction between the model type Kabalite Warrior and the Data-Slate Kabalite Warrior terms)
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Upgrading a weapon specialist to Champion   Mon Nov 14 2016, 06:30

Well you cant make that distinction IMO. The model either is a KW or isnt.

However that Apothecary argument settles it for me. Were it a Sarge, i would not mind as they come already as sarges and the wording would be different as a result. But this is exactly the same case.
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