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Causalis
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PostSubject: Fortification worth it?   Mon Nov 07 2016, 10:21

So, I've been to the Spiel 2016 (biggest boardgame convention of the world I've been told) and got myself a 4'x4' mat from Kraken Mats (I'm a student and I just don't have the space for a 6'x4' mat). I've got a buddy who regularly comes over to my place with his Orks and thus I prepare our gaming table etc. A few months ago I made some terrain myself but the colour doesn't fit so I'm starting to buy some stuff. Recently acquired some Promethium Pipelines. The Haemotrope Reactors will soon follow (I've got an Ad Mech army after all).

This brought the fortification-slot to my attention - a slot I almost never EVER see filled in any non-tournament armylist around here or anywhere else.

This got me thinking: Would an Imperial Bunker be useful for the Dark Kin? It can hold 20 models and gives us the hilarious capability to bring up to 6 tank traps (it doesn't specify which dimensions these must be so 1 tank trap could be 20" across if you want to be really cheesy), which are impassible terrain for every vehicle except skimmers (which are all our vehicles).

Yes, I know we are a "fast" army (there are other armies that are faster than us) and being stationary isn't really our thing. But we could plop some Ssylth/Medusae/Warriors/etc. in there (they would be safer than in any other of our vehicles). With an escape hatch the squad inside can also avoid CC if they want to and the bunker comes with 4 heavy bolters.

We could hide our Warlord inside or use it to make our special weapon guys more survivable.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Mon Nov 07 2016, 15:52

TBH, I totally skipped the fortification/building parts of the rules in both 6th and 7th, so I have no idea.

I have seen some BatReps where guys jump out of the escape hatch to control a portion of the board far away.

I have always seen these things as "cheesy", and only really got behind them when fliers were introduced in 6th (and there was no AA in any codex). Since then, whenever I see tau hiding behind a ADL or whatever, it makes me cringe. However, a guard player made some custom sand-bag ADL stuff, which looked really cool.

What are other peoples thoughts about maximizing this FOC? We are going CAD most of the time anyway....
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Mon Nov 07 2016, 16:08

My only issue with the bunker is that you can't hide any of our skimmers behind it, but you can with the bastion.

Hadn't really thought about the tank traps yet, but a trap door can be nice for a large grot unit. I like having haywire scourges hide behind it and jump in and fire through the fire points.

It's decent, it doesn't really seem to help against top tier armies though.

I've been considering trying out the void shield generator to protect some transports for a turn, if anyone has any thoughts on that?

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Mon Nov 07 2016, 16:12

I have also thought about the VSG, but unfortunately thoughts thoughts only extended to how to build a visually appealing DE version, not the actual rules...
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Mon Nov 07 2016, 16:32

I meant the Imperial Bastion, sorry.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Mon Nov 07 2016, 21:33

Fortifications are awesome and totally under utilized.  I regularly turn my mediocre chaos marine or renegades list into something brutal by exploiting some of the special rules and a forgeworld unit or two.

For the dark kin though, the book just doesn't leave much room to exploit fortifications.  None of our units really excel at holding fortified positions, and getting cover saves on an army that's usually in a skimmer transport is pretty pointless.  This would apply to the bunker idea too, I've tried to justify "blobdar" units myself but the price compared to how much long ranged firepower 20 kabalites can bring - it just isn't worth it.  I'd even argue that our lack of AV anywhere else endangers high av fortifications as enemies will often not want to "waste" a lascannon on a skimmer when something that can't jink is much more tempting.

The two things I do find useful for this army are the ability to manipulate reserve rolls and bring limited interceptor/anti air fire.  Luckily both of those can be achieved with an aegis line and a minimum squad to man it.

In my experience though, neither benefit has really been a game changer the way a skyshield deploying a malefic fire raptor on turn 1 or a void relay infested with renegades carrying flamers (with torrent and shred) in the middle of the table can be.
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Mon Nov 07 2016, 21:55

Quote :
or a void relay infested with renegades carrying flamers (with torrent and shred) in the middle of the table can be.

The Promethium Relay Pipes are disgusting, really. I assembled them and just plopped them on the table to test against my buddy's Orks. He deployed some Burnaboys behind one... not fun. The range torrent flamer have is just absurd and 2 normal flamer (Orks have almost exclusively heavy flamers) is enough to roast any Kabalites in their Raiders/Venoms. We agreed to never play the pipes with that flamer-enhancing-rule again but wanted to keep the whole "roll a 6 for cover and a 1 and you have to suffer D6 S4 AP5 hits" because we find it funny and very fluffy.

As for the fortifications - yes, I do realise that "blobdar" (thats a hilarious term!) aren't really good. Other armies can take more special weapons in a 20 man squad etc.

Still, if my opponent would "waste" his anti-tank-weapons on the Bastion - which is AV14 after all so even Lascannons would need 5s to do something and then we can still give the building a void shield - I would be happy about that. One less Raider/Ravager/Venom/etc. that will be targeted and thus can deploy its full firepower.
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Korona
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Tue Nov 08 2016, 03:51

So this was turn 3 at a recent 1000pt tournament vs 5 riptides:



- note that there was nowhere to hide and also note that my army is missing!

It can be nice to guarantee yourself some LoS blocking terrain since it enables so much of our tactical play.  Having said that, I feel 75 points is a big price to pay for a lack of scenery. It seems better to try and make sure people are playing with sufficient terrain in the first place!

I think there was a pretty good argument for fortifications in a Dark Eldar army when they could be placed anywhere on your side of the board. It allowed you to plan a strategy on there being a place to hide in the middle of the board - fantastic for fast armies!

While you are now restricted to your deployment zone you now place them with other models.  This does mean if you are going second vs a shooty army you can drop a bastion down in the way of his shots and just block the shooting.  Even if they somehow kill it, unless it detonates it will still be left on the table to block shooting.

The bastion is also the easiest thing to replicate for Dark Eldar since a tall spire is in keeping with the look of Commorragh.  There's some neat ideas on google, this one is my favourite since it fits the original dimensions while still looking distinctly Eldar:



Does it fit with the theme of the army? I could totally see a megalomaniacal Archon breaching the webway and pulling a spire from his Commorragh fortress into realspace to block the fire from some impudent fire base - as much for the spectacle as anything.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Tue Nov 08 2016, 04:48

@Causalis wrote:

As for the fortifications - yes, I do realise that "blobdar" (thats a hilarious term!) aren't really good. Other armies can take more special weapons in a 20 man squad etc.

Corsairs can actually do blobdar effectively (and hilariously) under the right conditions.  They have serious mobility with key generators and their psychic discipline  - so a full reaver band of 30 (with assault 3 range 24 weapons) can bounce around and do horrible things to most infantry.  They also get 2 special weapons per 5 men so that's 12 melta guns, flamers, or cheap blasters.

Corsair balestrikes also do the fortification thing better as they are cheaper than scourges and each one can take a heavy weapon (up to 10?) from a long list.  Going one step further - they can gain preferred enemy tank and walker for free.

@Korona wrote:
The bastion is also the easiest thing to replicate for Dark Eldar since a tall spire is in keeping with the look of Commorragh.  There's some neat ideas on google, this one is my favourite since it fits the original dimensions while still looking distinctly Eldar:

Hiding Image So I don't Hog the whole page :
 

Does it fit with the theme of the army?  I could totally see a megalomaniacal Archon breaching the webway and pulling a spire from his Commorragh fortress into realspace to block the fire from some impudent fire base - as much for the spectacle as anything.

It fits - it may be more fitting in darker colors or a different basing scheme.  Spellcrow also makes eldar Aegis Defense line sections - they're a little more craftworld in style though.

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Korona
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Tue Nov 08 2016, 13:26

Yeah balestrikes are everything scourges should be.  Jet pack infantry and jetbikes can abuse the hell out of LoS blockers.


Last edited by Korona on Tue Nov 08 2016, 23:44; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Tue Nov 08 2016, 16:52

@Korona
Where do you got that cool picture from and do you know how it was made? (and from what material?)

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Korona
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Tue Nov 08 2016, 23:56

The picture is from this deviantart profile
http://www.deviantart.com/browse/all/?section=&global=1&q=therebmonsters

I think the guy was selling them as a 3rd party kit but sadly the shop link to his models is dead. If you want one he might be possible to contact, else maybe try to scratchbuild it from foamcore? I wouldn't be surprised if the master was mostly foamcore at least.
If you plot the model out in a CAD programme and print out guides then you can cut the pieces out with a craft knife and make the indentations with a ball point pen.
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Wed Nov 09 2016, 11:26

Honestly in a competitive environment the Voidshield generator is your friend. For 100 points you get alpha mitigation, immunity to melta, grav, and gauss ( until the FAQ/ new ruleset hits) and depending on your local rulings, have a unit in your army that can hold an objective. Far and away the best 100 points in the game.

The biggest thing the Dark Kin lack is protection vs the Alpha strike. Alphas were our thing for quite a while, but with so many first turn fist you in the mouth formations we need a counter to them, and 3 AV12 shields does it quite well

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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Wed Nov 09 2016, 13:50

Hmm, can you explain more about the VSG? Some tactics around those would be nice, since you are able to use it as BLOS terrain (for small 5 man units anyway)
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Thu Nov 10 2016, 03:57

@fisheyes wrote:
Hmm, can you explain more about the VSG? Some tactics around those would be nice, since you are able to use it as BLOS terrain (for small 5 man units anyway)

Sure!

The VSG projects a 12 inch bubble around itself that any shooting attack must penetrate first, an AV12 shield. It is not a "vehicle" or "building" it is a shield, so Gauss, Melta Grav etc will not work vs it. ( this has been tentatively updated in the FAQ, we shall see where it falls) It can be upgraded to 3 shields, totally worth it, and with proper model placement you can make sure no skyhammer or what have you can drop inside the bubble.

Depending on where and what ruleset you play with the VSG goes from good to amazing. The basics dont change though. use it to protect your army on the first turn. It is also an impassable building with battlements-battlements do not require dangerous terrain checks so parking a ravager or what have you up there is a valid option.

Post first turn you can hide in it if your opponent has to come running to you or if they are already there, abandon it. Beyond its first turn alpha mitigation its a crutch. Its either an AV13 or AV14 medium building depending on which ruleset you are using, can or cannot hold objectives again depending, and really becomes a pain in the arse for your opponent no matter what. It takes a lot of higher strength shooting to bring the shield down, so it keeps your raiders, venoms and ravagers from having to weather that. Its a different mindset to play with, but once you use it in competition you may never leave home without it. Practice though, its not as easy to use as it sounds. Good luck!

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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Thu Nov 10 2016, 10:04

Where do I get the official rules and what would your dark Eldar generator look like?

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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Thu Nov 10 2016, 13:01

The official rules are in Stronghold Assault (soon to be rereleased by GW in Planetary Assault supplement).
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Thu Nov 10 2016, 15:53

It itself is a medium impassible building (with battlements) with AV 13 - 4 Hull points, the Void Shield zone is 12" if you are out side of it shooting in then you hit the shield(s) until they are all collapsed, if you are inside the zone then you don't hit the shield. By default it has 1 shield for 50 points you can add up to 2 more shields for 25 points each. If the building doesn't get destroyed the shields can regenerate on a 5+ at the end of the controlling players turn. Any glance or pen collapses a shield. Destroyer hits also collaspe it reguardless of the result.

Another small note, template and blasts being shot from outside the zone that hit a unit inside the zone only score a single hit against a shield, regardless of how many models they cover.

Gauss, melta and haywire should work on it because the armour penetration mechanic in the rules is only for vehicles (even the building rules say treat the building like a vehicle to do armour penetration) though you can rules lawyer whatever you wish I've even see people say the shields can never be hurt because the rules for Armour penetration are only for vehicles (pretty much the same argument for Gauss, melta and haywire just taken to its conclusion that "if it isn't a vehicle then...". But just remember if you try to argue that way then you are "that guy". Grav is another story because it doesn't actually do a pen or glance (and the grav rules state they have no effect on buildings) but GW has stated it's draft FAQ that it does work against it.

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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Fri Nov 11 2016, 14:07

If you're willing to pay the tax of a promethium relay (which is 40 points), you can take up to 3 void shield generators and 9 total shield layers in your 1 fortification slot.  This really isn't cheap, and the pipes don't do much for us any other 4+ cover would... except occasionally blow up in our faces. But that's 3 12" bubbles.

Sadly in the whole Void Relay Network though, you can't take any ugrades other than obstacles.  So no quad guns or comms relays.
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Fri Nov 11 2016, 17:53

Those rules of the VSG feel very klunky. So he shoots at my warrior squad, but first needs to pen or glance an AV 12 vehicle first? Weird.

I can see it helping us vs bolters and other <S6 weapons though.

I still think the escape hatch plan would work better though...
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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Sat Nov 12 2016, 08:11

It works like any other void shield of titans:
You're inside: profit
You're outside: you're screwed

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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Mon Nov 28 2016, 03:09

So here's what I was thinking:

Webway/deep strike heavy army

comms relay, Aegis line of defence. (Painted as if it seen battle, and maybe some kind of graffiti)

throw my 20 warriors behind it and they just chill, hold an objective and give me a solid unit on the board while the rest fly through the webway onto the board turn 2

Think it would be viable? Its mostly how I would hide from drop pods and hold an objective

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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Mon Nov 28 2016, 05:01

If you want to use an aegis there are eldar alternatIves online.

I prefer a bastion to an aegis. You can take an escape hatch and shuffle a unit of 10 grots 18+d6 inches out of your deployment zone on turn 1. I want to use it for a wraith heavy list to move some wraithblades.

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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Mon Nov 28 2016, 09:11

If you want to hide from drop pods you need to make sure that he can't reach you. He'll just drop a squad on every side of this unit and kill you with Bolter and flamer. If he got the first turn: you're done.

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PostSubject: Re: Fortification worth it?   Mon Nov 28 2016, 13:02

Ya, the ADL is great... until the enemy bring a DS tamplate or remove cover weapon against you.

So flamer pods and tau basically ignore it
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