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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 16:05

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I mean, Necrons also don't have interaction there, but I wouldn't say it's bad design against Necrons. It's only bad design for us because we already suck so bad against everything else, and by fluff we should have more psychic defense anyhow.

Personally I'd give Necrons immunity to certain psychic powers, specifically Telepathy. But then, I'm a big fan of having rules that reflect the fluff.

The bad design though simply comes from the fact that there's an entire phase of the game in which one player is essentially not involved. Many's the time I've sat there clutching my solitary warp charge dice and watching the other player cast power after power. It's just not fun.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 16:29

An argument could be made that in the shooting phase, that's how people feel when tau shoot them. Same thing. You sit there holding your dice, never getting to use it.

I guess in a roundabout way, I'm saying that's going to be the case in any scenario where one faction's specific strength is playing directly against another faction's specific weakness. The thing is, DE's shouldn't be a specific weakness. It should be a mixed blessing. Can't be psykers, but also harder for psykers to effect, imo.

All units counted as level 1 psykers for purposes of deny rolls AND dice would certainly do the trick, don't you think? Perhaps too well?

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 16:36

I think it's quite a nice solution but would need to have some sort of mechanic to prevent abuse by allies.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 16:40

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I think it's quite a nice solution but would need to have some sort of mechanic to prevent abuse by allies.

Why? What other faction that has an awesome ability has a mechanic to prevent ally abuse? Ally abuse is a thing now. Embrace it. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 16:44

True but just cos GW don't care about it doesn't mean I don't Smile

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 16:54

Yeah, but that sort of mentality is what results in a screwed up, out of meta codex like the one we have now. Someone get's the bright idea of "WHOA, WHOA, this is all out of control...." Then they put out what they consider to be a reasonable DE codex. Next week, they're fired and we get 2 years of crazy, powerful releases. Don't hire that guy right before we get our codex again. Just embrace all things powerful. I think the power level is fine, so long as they stick with it and apply awesome, powerful stuff to all factions like it seems they're moving in the direction of.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 17:45

Necrons and Dark Eldar are known to have technologies so far advanced that it looks like magic to outsiders. In my opinion, both could get toys that act just like normal psyker powers do.

I'm fine with the fact that we don't have the psycic fanciness of other races but to have at least something could make things more interesting and a bit less stellar.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 18:07

I like the idea of making Helms of Spite accessible as wargear to all squad sarges (maybe with a points reduction...).

Would give you a reason to take them, and would make people think twice about using psychic powers. Seems fluffy that the Dark Eldar would give their warriors something that would cause enemy psykers intense pain for using their powers nearby...

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 18:21

I like the idea of making really cool unique models for allying in a culexus assassin and say, a bastion to house him in.

Make a dark eldar tower spire like the ones in the visual depictions of commoragh in the codex and count it as a bastion. Then make a culexus that a haemonculus has captured and is working on. Either make him look like a grotesque, or model him with a haemonculus behind him with the haemys tendrils / arms hooked to his brain like the haemy is manipulating him.

It can get boring thinking the Dark Eldar need to ally with other factions to fill holes, but thinking of ways to incorporate the dark city into other factions is pretty fun.

Also, Its true that the psychic phase is pretty boring. I still run pure DE and let the psychic phase just happen to me.  At least in the shooting phase we can roll dice to block almost everything.
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 22:20

@Betraytheworld: 40K has less balance than trying to play checkers and chess at the same time, with one player having chess pieces and playing with chess rules, and the other playing with checker pieces and checkers rules. I'd rather play a complete game where both players are using the same rules, than 2 players playing on the same board with different rules.

"Sigmarizing" the rules, might be a bad thing, but the game is not in a good place, and needs some real help. Unless you like playing rock, paper, scissors; which is closer to how the game plays than chess.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Dec 21 2016, 07:34

@megatrons2nd wrote:
 Unless you like playing rock, paper, scissors; which is closer to how the game plays than chess.

I disagree with this completely, and have never lost the "Army swap challenge", where I basically offer to play someone else's army and give them mine(although we still make our own lists!).

I issue this challenge to every person I play who ever complains about specific factions. They can all be beaten by just about any other faction, except for the couple forgotten factions(orks/DE). I play craftworld eldar a lot, so you can imagine how often I issue the army swap challenge. People like to talk about how powerful eldar are, despite the massive power creep that has occurred after the eldar release. They're really not as bad as many would have you believe. They're absolutely competitive, and the wraithknight is undoubtedly underpriced, but aside from that, I think they fit fine into the current meta.

And I am still holding out hope that the DE get an awesome makeover this next time around. When the current DE codex came out, there were lots of rumors about a wych cult supplement coming out following the main codex release, but it never materialized. I can't help but think they recognized the meta shift and shelved the supplement until they redo the main codex to do it justice and get better supplement sales as well.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Dec 21 2016, 09:55

I agree that Eldar fit nicely into the current meta. Pretty much all the codexes from Necrons onwards are reasonably well balanced against each other but hideously unbalanced against pretty much anything prior to Necrons. I still think Eldar are either at or very close to the top of the tree but SM, Necrons, AdMech etc can at least give them a decent battle.

I wish I could agree with you on the Wych Cult supplement, both in terms of its existence and GW's recognition of problems with the current DE codex. Sadly, I'm not that optimistic!

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Dec 21 2016, 11:54

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I agree that Eldar fit nicely into the current meta. Pretty much all the codexes from Necrons onwards are reasonably well balanced against each other but hideously unbalanced against pretty much anything prior to Necrons.

I agree with this assessment. It makes sense, since Necrons were the first "true" decurion-style detachment. We were technically the first, but it was a hideous experiment who's soul had merit, but the execution of which ended up leaving us unfulfilled. Our "meta-detachment" from the covens supplement requires a minimum of like 2250 points if I recall correctly. It's been a couple years since I've added them all up.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Dec 21 2016, 12:00

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@megatrons2nd wrote:
 Unless you like playing rock, paper, scissors; which is closer to how the game plays than chess.

I disagree with this completely, and have never lost the "Army swap challenge", where I basically offer to play someone else's army and give them mine(although we still make our own lists!).

I issue this challenge to every person I play who ever complains about specific factions. They can all be beaten by just about any other faction, except for the couple forgotten factions(orks/DE). I play craftworld eldar a lot, so you can imagine how often I issue the army swap challenge. People like to talk about how powerful eldar are, despite the massive power creep that has occurred after the eldar release. They're really not as bad as many would have you believe. They're absolutely competitive, and the wraithknight is undoubtedly underpriced, but aside from that, I think they fit fine into the current meta.

And I am still holding out hope that the DE get an awesome makeover this next time around. When the current DE codex came out, there were lots of rumors about a wych cult supplement coming out following the main codex release, but it never materialized. I can't help but think they recognized the meta shift and shelved the supplement until they redo the main codex to do it justice and get better supplement sales as well.

That may be because you both took all the best stuff from the codex. Sometimes someone is better at reading people than others, could almost lay odds that you win more than you lose in Rock, Paper, Scissors as well. That is a good skill to have. Doesn't change the fact that any deviation outside of the best units will lead to a loss. If an Eldar army doesn't include any jetbikes, wraith units of any type, or Psykers, they become much more difficult to win with. I played a few games with my buddy, we are about equally skilled our win to loss ratio in tournaments was 1 off, him better than me, and our own games every other game the opposite of us would win. In these test games my Eldar army stomped his army, every time, with the before mentioned units included. When I removed those items, the win/loss went back to it's usual rotation.

The game needs balanced....badly. You don't see many units, and others are so good that they are sought after as allies to shore up week spots in an army. When you win more than you lose taking nothing but the bad units out of a codex vs all the best in another, or a new edition comes out, then I will reconsider my opinion of the game.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Dec 21 2016, 15:16

There's this idea floating around that to Sigmarise 40k would mean to dumb down the rules. AoS is a different game to Warhammer Fantasy. It's rules are different. WFB is much closer to the 40k ruleset than AoS is, it would make no sense to convert 40k to an AoS style ruleset. GW isn't dumb enough to not undertsand that would kill 40k and probably bankrupt them. They could afford the hit with WFB, they can't with 40k. The Sigmarisation of 40k will come (and it will come) through the philosophy of how you play the game. Fluid factions and pick-and-mix formations to build your army around. 40k has suffered for years because the force org chart (now known as the Combined Arms detachment). This detachment is way older than the other detachments the game enjoys today. The CAD was being run in 3rd ed back when I was playing regularly. It was introduced as a counter to hero-hammer and spamming tanks/dreads. But it added rigidity in the way the game was played at the expense of maintaining better balance. The new detachment philosophy blows all that balance out the water. Super allies, Decurion's 3+ source armies, they all destroy the balance the game was built around (the CAD). AoS was built with all these in mind. 40k wasn't. Taudar are so disgustingly strong because they were never intended to be played alongside each other and it happens that those factions have rules that can be gamed to the point that it breaks the game. It could have been any factions, it happened to be those two. If you build your ruleset with super allies, Decurions and 3+ source in mind then you're building a game where you don't allow for game breaking combinations to arise, because you're actively building to avoid them. This is where the Sigmasation will occur - the game needs building with the understanding that this is how the game is played now. And that would be great. Great for casuals who just want to field whatever models they own, great for fluffies who want to field armies not currently possible in the current ruleset (why can't I field IG with my AL chaos?) and great for the competitive and power gamers who can min-max their formation and faction selection. All without breaking the game. No need to dumb it down. Streamline some things maybe, clean up some rules mess. But no need to make it checkers. People are so scarred of change, always fearing the worse. If GW wants to dumb down the game they'll do it regardless. But they probably won't, because they've started to pay attention to tournaments again. they're practically shadowing Frontline, watching how they do it. You can't steer your ship into the winds of tourney's if you intend to dumb down your game. It would kill competitive 40k No I think GW won't dumb down their game. They'll tweak it in parts. But mostly what 8th ed needs is some clean up, some polish and the factions re-balancing with the pick-and-mix army building in mind. Any faction post Decurion needs only a little bit of spit and polish (tweaking classic units like dreads, termies etc). A few factions need a rework (nids, DE, Orks). The rest of the stuff in the game is IoM stuff that they're already tweaking. The new Imperial codex thing shows us where they're going with all the various imperial orders/subfactions being easy to slot into any imperial army.

I think GW know what they need to do and I reckon they'll do it. I think 8th ed is gonna be a new golden age for 40k

The rule of giving all DE units AW seems legit. I'm not so keen on them getting warp charges per unit (because DE spam MSU a lot) though. I'd prefer it to be harder to get the powers off around them but not easier for DE to actively block powers. I do like having squad champs have the option to take Helms of Spite or similar, or ways to actively harm enemy psykers. For DE even having other psykers around them drawing the attention of chaos is bad news for them. They wouldn't risk attention being drawn. DE have a cowardice born of necessity when it comes to staying out of the chaos gaze. Better to cancel a raid and plan for another 10 years than put yourself at risk of Slaanesh finding you because some idiot monkeigh psyker messed up. DE should be like thorns to psykers. You can grab them with your powers but you're gonna tear your hand open doing so.

I don't know much about how Necrons work nowadays but didn't they used to have a unit called a a pariah that was a null psyker unit? Do they not have them anymore? They seemed very fluffy to me and would be very useful in this psyker heavy edition.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Dec 21 2016, 21:55

@megatrons2nd wrote:
any deviation outside of the best units will lead to a loss. If an Eldar army doesn't include any jetbikes, wraith units of any type, or Psykers, they become much more difficult to win with.

I mean, you're disqualifying half of the Eldar army there. Here are the units you disqualified:

Eldrad Ulthran
Farseer
Farseer Windrunner
Warlock
Warlock Windrunner
Spiritseer
Hemlock Wraithfighter
Windrider Jetbikes
Autarch on Jetbike
Shining Spears
Wraithguard
Wraithblades
Wraithlord
Wraithknight
Wraithseer(forgeworld)

The fact of the matter is that your disqualification of Eldar units was overly broad. In the current meta, pretty much everything Eldar have is in step in power level to everything else released since Necrons, with the sole exceptions maybe being wraithknights and scatterbikes.

And scatterbikes are debateable. They're certainly strong, but there are lots of strong things these days. Wraithknights are the only universally overpowered unit, and that's only because they're underpriced.

I routinely play without using wraithknights, scatterbikes, or D-weapons of any kind, which is generally viewed by my opponents as not playing the cheese, until they actually play me and see the other combinations I set up using non-traditional "cheese" units. And that's my entire point. The game is in a place right now where you can be creative. There are enough options to play unique lists, rather than "best of" lists that existed when we had single force orgs. There are too many combinations of factions, detachments, and formations available for any 1 to be "THE" list.

And, in my opinion, that's EXACTLY where the game should be, and continue to be headed.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Dec 21 2016, 22:48

Here here
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Dec 22 2016, 12:35

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@megatrons2nd wrote:
any deviation outside of the best units will lead to a loss.  If an Eldar army doesn't include any jetbikes, wraith units of any type, or Psykers, they become much more difficult to win with.

I mean, you're disqualifying half of the Eldar army there. Here are the units you disqualified:

Eldrad Ulthran
Farseer
Farseer Windrunner
Warlock
Warlock Windrunner
Spiritseer
Hemlock Wraithfighter
Windrider Jetbikes
Autarch on Jetbike
Shining Spears
Wraithguard
Wraithblades
Wraithlord
Wraithknight
Wraithseer(forgeworld)

The fact of the matter is that your disqualification of Eldar units was overly broad. In the current meta, pretty much everything Eldar have is in step in power level to everything else released since Necrons, with the sole exceptions maybe being wraithknights and scatterbikes.

And scatterbikes are debateable. They're certainly strong, but there are lots of strong things these days. Wraithknights are the only universally overpowered unit, and that's only because they're underpriced.

I routinely play without using wraithknights, scatterbikes, or D-weapons of any kind, which is generally viewed by my opponents as not playing the cheese, until they actually play me and see the other combinations I set up using non-traditional "cheese" units. And that's my entire point. The game is in a place right now where you can be creative. There are enough options to play unique lists, rather than "best of" lists that existed when we had single force orgs. There are too many combinations of factions, detachments, and formations available for any 1 to be "THE" list.

And, in my opinion, that's EXACTLY where the game should be, and continue to be headed.

So that means the other 50% of the book is junk, and to make matters worse, the ones that are left out are the actual military units. In a game where fluff is supposedly the driving factor of how to build an army, this is really weird.

Either they up the power of everything, including the other 50% of the codex that people are avoiding, they adjust points costs, or they weaken the powerful stuff to the level of everything else. I'm not saying that everything is bad, or that I care which way they go, I just m tired of being penalized because I don't like the models for a particular army or group within an army that happens to have the best rules.

I don't do well with my DE anymore since the meta shift. When I post a list for critique, or ask my opponents what would have been better to do, the answer is always the same "Where are your grots?" "You need more Coven units." "Don't use Wyches." "Incubi are too expensive."

At that point I might a well not play, because I'm not playing my army, and can't play the way I want. So long as any unit is not a viable unit, there is a problem in the way the game is designed, and when it includes entire armies, and half of a codex, this just exacerbates the problem in my mind. I'm sure min maxers like it because it reduces the choices both to look at and prepare for.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Dec 22 2016, 18:03

You better clarify that statement @megatrons2nd because I'm taking it as an unfounded insult. It's probably best also to keep from absolutist statements, and if you can't think that way then you should probably field whatever you'd like, get wrecked, and not ask for our advice.
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Dec 22 2016, 22:40

@amorrowlyday wrote:
You better clarify that statement @megatrons2nd because I'm taking it as an unfounded insult. It's probably best also to keep from absolutist statements, and if you can't think that way then you should probably field whatever you'd like, get wrecked, and not ask for our advice.

Not trying to insult anyone. As to the field what I want, I stopped playing because of the balance issues, and the fact that the game doesn't have any real balance to it. I don't ask for advice anymore because instead of getting help on how to make the group I have work better, and strategies to employ, the response is "you didn't buy the right stuff". If I wanted to buy that stuff, I would have bought it. It's like asking how to fix a broken power outlet and being told to buy a new house. Neither is really helping.

My Stance is everything should be viable, and that the game has less balance than Chess, which a previous poster tried to hold up as a similar complexity to balance game. This game has nothing even remotely close to balanced rules. The complexity of play is caused mostly by inadequately worded rules, much like how I sound on here, as I am not very good at conveying my thoughts via text.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Dec 22 2016, 23:49

@megatrons2nd wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@megatrons2nd wrote:
any deviation outside of the best units will lead to a loss.  If an Eldar army doesn't include any jetbikes, wraith units of any type, or Psykers, they become much more difficult to win with.

I mean, you're disqualifying half of the Eldar army there. Here are the units you disqualified:

Eldrad Ulthran
Farseer
Farseer Windrunner
Warlock
Warlock Windrunner
Spiritseer
Hemlock Wraithfighter
Windrider Jetbikes
Autarch on Jetbike
Shining Spears
Wraithguard
Wraithblades
Wraithlord
Wraithknight
Wraithseer(forgeworld)

The fact of the matter is that your disqualification of Eldar units was overly broad. In the current meta, pretty much everything Eldar have is in step in power level to everything else released since Necrons, with the sole exceptions maybe being wraithknights and scatterbikes.

And scatterbikes are debateable. They're certainly strong, but there are lots of strong things these days. Wraithknights are the only universally overpowered unit, and that's only because they're underpriced.

I routinely play without using wraithknights, scatterbikes, or D-weapons of any kind, which is generally viewed by my opponents as not playing the cheese, until they actually play me and see the other combinations I set up using non-traditional "cheese" units. And that's my entire point. The game is in a place right now where you can be creative. There are enough options to play unique lists, rather than "best of" lists that existed when we had single force orgs. There are too many combinations of factions, detachments, and formations available for any 1 to be "THE" list.

And, in my opinion, that's EXACTLY where the game should be, and continue to be headed.

So that means the other 50% of the book is junk, and to make matters worse, the ones that are left out are the actual military units.  

Either they up the power of everything, including the other 50% of the codex that people are avoiding, they adjust points costs, or they weaken the powerful stuff to the level of everything else.  I'm not saying that everything is bad, or that I care which way they go, I just m tired of being penalized because I don't like the models for a particular army or group within an army that happens to have the best rules.

Ok, taking this one issue at a time...

1.

I think you misunderstood my post if you think it proves that the other 50% of the book is junk, because my post said I primarily USE other stuff from the book. My point was that there are creative ways to apply units that are viewed as "weaker" in order to get amplified use out of them.

Leading us to....

2.


"Power level" is a very subjective thing. For the most part, you can't show me eldar stat lines and compare them to other factions like space marines and clearly show me how Eldar are simply superior, which means that you're making a personal judgement call based on your emotions rather than a scientifically/mathematically provable claim.

Finally bringing us to...

3.
I, and others, have absolutely ZERO interest in playing a game where every combination of units is viable against every other combination of units. If I slap together a turd sandwich of a list while you carefully construct a list with the tactical acumen of Sun Tzu, yet at the end we both have something that is "completely viable" against the other, I have no interest in being a part of that game or community.

This idea is precisely what I was talking about when I said I want to play chess, not checkers. The problem is, you think the game starts when we start putting our armies on the table. The game starts before you ever make your list. Think about that for a moment. Understand what I'm saying. Before we choose our army, or any individual models for our list, two opponents are completely equal. They may choose any faction, and assemble any army they like, both using the exact same rules.

Unfortunately, this means having lots of redundant models that you don't necessarily use every game in order to stay competitive and flexible, which is exactly the way GW wants it.

I currently own 4k points worth of Eldar, 4k DE, 4k Tau, 2k Orks, and 2k Necrons. These points are rough estimates. I don't think people should have to do what I do to be competitive, but if you're limiting yourself to 50% of the models from 1 single faction in the game, it's hard to feel sorry for you. You're not even 100% committing to your own faction.

That said, I DO agree that no units should be completely useless. I own 60 wyches myself. Incubi suck now since they lost access to grenades from the old phantasm grenade launcher, hellions are bad, etc. I don't think units should exist in which there is no credible way to apply them that doesn't make you a tactical laughing stock.

But our focus, in complaining about it, should then be on making those units useful rather than overall complaining about how everyone else's stuff is too useful.

I personally want EVERY player's response after reading the new codex for their favorite faction to be, "That's awesome! They seem so good!"

Every faction should be "powerful" and even "Overpowered" in their own way. Just my opinion. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Fri Dec 23 2016, 00:00

@megatrons2nd wrote:

Not trying to insult anyone.
We're going to have to agree to disagree then because that's what your content does.

@megatrons2nd wrote:
As to the field what I want, I stopped playing because of the balance issues, and the fact that the game doesn't have any real balance to it.

Then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, because the game has a dense interplay of different layers of balance that you're not qualified to speak on if you can't describe how a given unit or combination of units will behave in situ.

@megatrons2nd wrote:
I don't ask for advice anymore because instead of getting help on how to make the group I have work better, and strategies to employ, the response is "you didn't buy the right stuff".  If I wanted to buy that stuff, I would have bought it.

If you bring me a screwdriver and ask me how to drive nails with it I'm going to tell you to get a hammer or find some screws. There is nothing in our army that is absolutely non-viable in raw play and it is not in anyway GW's fault that our communities decided to use formats that unfairly restrict our options in relation to everyone else. Those restrictions then temper the field and make the specific things that are dominant, dominant. If you want to field Wyches and Hellions go find a legion guard or endless swarm tyranid player and go wild.

@megatrons2nd wrote:
It's like asking how to fix a broken power outlet and being told to buy a new house.  Neither is really helping.

The fact that you thought this was a proper analogy for the above demonstrates how out of touch you are with the degree of bad our toys are.



@megatrons2nd wrote:
My Stance is everything should be viable, and that the game has less balance than Chess, which a previous poster tried to hold up as a similar complexity to balance game.  This game has nothing even remotely close to balanced rules.

Everything. Is. Viable. Provided the community at large actually made use of everything. Marine players playing marines and overpolluting the unit pool with 3+ saves render units unplayable, but that's not on us or GW. Those things that can't kill marines reliable usually aren't supposed to be able to, which is why GW built in stat interplay at higher armour saves and lower toughnesses. It isn't GW's fault the lions share of people field S4/T4 3+.

Chess also only has 6 unit types. Regular old space marine tacticals have more possible builds than that so again your argument doesn't stand up.

@megatrons2nd wrote:
The complexity of play is caused mostly by inadequately worded rules, much like how I sound on here, as I am not very good at conveying my thoughts via text.

Play complexity occurs because of interplay with 5 different toughness values and about 3 different save values, as well as the ability to combine these things into greater wholes than their parts. Imbalance, where it does occur has nothing to do with poorly worded rules. It has entirely to do with opportunity cost caused by points and point totals, and directional aspirations for the relative power level of different factions. We're bad right now because the writers at the time only wanted to make our novel rules more generic, not because they took well worded rules and bungled the wording.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Fri Dec 23 2016, 00:17

Updated my previous post.

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megatrons2nd
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Fri Dec 23 2016, 00:59

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I currently own 4k points worth of Eldar, 4k DE, 4k Tau, 2k Orks, and 2k Necrons. These points are rough estimates. I don't think people should have to do what I do to be competitive, but if you're limiting yourself to 50% of the models from 1 single faction in the game, it's hard to feel sorry for you. You're not even 100% committing to your own faction.

That said, I DO agree that no units should be completely useless. I own 60 wyches myself. Incubi suck now since they lost access to grenades from the old phantasm grenade launcher, hellions are bad, etc. I don't think units should exist in which there is no credible way to apply them that doesn't make you a tactical laughing stock.

But our focus, in complaining about it, should then be on making those units useful rather than overall complaining about how everyone else's stuff is too useful.

I personally want EVERY player's response after reading the new codex for their favorite faction to be, "That's awesome! They seem so good!"

Every faction should be "powerful" and even "Overpowered" in their own way. Just my opinion. Wink

Understood.

I sold my 4000+ points each of Tau and Eldar as they were no longer fun, and The game was getting more unbalanced. I'm glad that the new super game is what everyone wants, but the balance is still off, at least in how models points are determined. The designers have come out and said they point them by what feels right, which is not a way to balance a game.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Fri Dec 23 2016, 01:09

@megatrons2nd wrote:
 I'm glad that the new super game is what everyone wants, but the balance is still off, at least in how models points are determined.  The designers have come out and said they point them by what feels right, which is not a way to balance a game.

This is a much more evenhanded stance, debatable since we won't be able to see the outcome until the cycle has finished, which could take years, but certainly reasonable.

I also want to point out that I think I know exactly which quote you're talking about, and they were explicitly referring to new units with how they point them, this distinction matters because it makes it about stuff like scarab termies that will be injected into an existant faction; new factions and redone factions are drastically different in this regard, feelings based or no, because redone factions are highly iterative, and Admech, genestealers, and Deathwatch don't have massive internal misbalances. The fact that they historically go so long without cost adjusting exacerbates the problem.
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