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killedbydeath
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PostSubject: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Nov 02 2016, 17:08

I know this would be a "play at home only".

But is the silent sisters just a better incubi?
They have the same stats, cheaper, better abilities and give us a much needed anti psyker tool.

I am thinking about running 1 unit in a rhino to help against invisible units.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Nov 02 2016, 17:11

Basically yes. But cheaper, with S6, built in anti-psyker support and all sorts of IoM superfriends deathstar possibilities. All at the cost of non-assault transports and I1 (I assume everyone will be taking the free evisorators). *rolls eyes*
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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Nov 02 2016, 17:26

At least they can't start in a transport, right?
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Nov 02 2016, 18:35

And they have less weapon skill, no power from Pain and the initiative is actually a big deal. If we could use Grenades.
Otherwise it's not that important but nevertheless important.

But some sort of anti psyker stuff would be nice though.

Btw: you could use the toughest girls of the galaxy Executioner count as Incubbi as those sisters, too!

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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Nov 02 2016, 19:23

Anti-Psy-wise we at least have the Helm Of Spite. My Adeptus Mechanicus army has NOTHING against Psykers or the Psychic phase (no characters/artefacts etc. that would give Adamantine Willetc.). And I hate the whole "just ally in an Culexus Assassin" argument. The game is literally forcing me to go ahead and cherry pick stuff from another army just to fill that weakness. 40K's ally-system is convoluted and ridiculous enough already ("Here, I play those Thunder Wolves with a SM Librarian Conclave with a Dark Angels dude that gives everyone in X" +1 attack" etc.).

So instead of using the Sisters I would also tell you to just use the Culexus, if you are bringing Imperials to the table anyway. Or multiple Culexi(?) since we are in the realm of "play at home".
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killedbydeath
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Nov 02 2016, 20:23

I know that " cheery picking" is a bit of for many people, but what can you do? With things like invisibility, death stats, free points (transports for space marines, upgrades for mechanicus) some armies are left a bit behind. I don't want to play a psychic death star or run some broken super heavy, so I am left with something anti psychic powers an at the moment dark elder don't have anything good.

I have lost more that one game to invisible units and also to other psychic powers!?
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Nov 02 2016, 20:57

Yeah, I feel you on that one. Personally I also dislike the Mechanicus War Convocation. Never took it because it is not just cheesy, it's the whole damn cheesewheel! I REALLY hope they go the Age Of Sigmar way:

-Make formations cost points to unlock
-Give your opponent a chance to actually block some spells/powers
-Rewards for players who build their army with no allies (In Age Of Sigmar you only get access to a warlord trait and artefacts if you stick to a certain faction)

I never understood how the Psychic Phase got past the design board. "So you can cast powers on a 4+ and I need to roll at least equally many 6s to stop it? - Yes, but if you ALSO have a Psyker and if I target him or his unit, you get to deny on 5+! - And what about armies that do not have Psykers? - Well, tough luck for them!"

Sorry for derailing the thread. Further discussions should probably be made via PM or in the 8th Edition thread. ^^"
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killedbydeath
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Wed Nov 02 2016, 23:02

I agree with the "cheese" or GW balance game idea.

I really hope they make 8 edition the balanced one. I think they could the game ssooo much more fun if there wasn't the huge power gap between armies.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Nov 03 2016, 00:03

I think, and I hope this doesn't sound as offensive as it sounds, the biggest problem with cherry picking is a lack of imagination.

A culexus or vindicare won't ally with my dark eldar, but a harlequin solitaire makes a great culexus (model and fluff). >I have a slightly altered illic nightspear model who makes an awesome looking Dark eldar mercenary. (Vindicare) and we're lucky in that "one eye open" is fluffy no matter what your counts as is.


Fire dragons don't belong in Dark eldar armies, so convert some true kin with experimental or stolen tech.

That's what helps me sleep at night at least while still being able to stay competitive.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Nov 03 2016, 03:01

@fisheyes wrote:
Basically yes. But cheaper, with S6, built in anti-psyker support and all sorts of IoM superfriends deathstar possibilities. All at the cost of non-assault transports and I1 (I assume everyone will be taking the free evisorators). *rolls eyes*

I cant even begin to list whats wrong with this...

Sisters of silence are +1LD but -1WS vs Incubi stat line.

Incubi have fleet and power from pain

Sisters of Silence have fear, fearless, psychic abomination.

The great sword - not eviscerator - is a free upgrade its just an Incubi Klaive (+1S, Ap2, 2 handed)

They have NO access to transports at all either - you have to steal one from a BB on turn 1 to get them anything

I cant help but think you mean sisters of battle and not the Sisters of Silence

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Nov 03 2016, 04:24

Maybe I'm just a sticker for proper use of words but is it really appropriate to start a list of what's wrong with his point with the sentence "I can't even begin to list...". I mean if you managed to form that entire list without ever starting it then color me thoroughly impressed.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Nov 03 2016, 06:23

@The Red King - Smarty pants! There is still more wrong but I wanted to highlight the majority...

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killedbydeath
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Nov 03 2016, 09:05

I was the sisters of silents I mean. You would need a small ally too just to have a transport for the sisters.
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Nov 03 2016, 09:29

Quote :
I think, and I hope this doesn't sound as offensive as it sounds, the biggest problem with cherry picking is a lack of imagination.

Non taken. But my problem isn't the clashing aesthetics of the minis (I build my own Inquisitioner and retinue for my Ad Mech). It's just that the game supports players who cherry pick the strongest units out of multiple codices to build a deathstar. In essence, they just put a patchwork-army on the table with no identity to itself whatsoever. What makes it even more frustrating is that other armies outside of the Imperium haven't got anywhere near the amount of BB allies and thus couldn't form such deathstars if they wanted to! Taking a mono-army should yield some advantage over an army consisting of 3+ factions (as in Age Of Sigmar) - but it doesn't, which is why the ally-mechanic is being abused so much.
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Nov 03 2016, 10:26

Thankyou Massaen.

If I was inclined to play them I would use the Raging Heroes female "incubi" as they look soooo much cooler than GWs offering and cheaper and very DE.

They would represent an anti-psycher incubi variant that Vect had created to bitch slap anyone foolish enough to test his "no psychics within the dark city" law.
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Nov 03 2016, 13:36

@Causalis wrote:

Non taken. But my problem isn't the clashing aesthetics of the minis (I build my own Inquisitioner and retinue for my Ad Mech). It's just that the game supports players who cherry pick the strongest units out of multiple codices to build a deathstar. In essence, they just put a patchwork-army on the table with no identity to itself whatsoever. What makes it even more frustrating is that other armies outside of the Imperium haven't got anywhere near the amount of BB allies and thus couldn't form such deathstars if they wanted to! Taking a mono-army should yield some advantage over an army consisting of 3+ factions (as in Age Of Sigmar) - but it doesn't, which is why the ally-mechanic is being abused so much.

That's a great idea actually, although it would be tricky to balance with in-codex deathstar units (like jetseer councils).

I do wonder sometimes whether they plan to use AoS as sort of a testbed for new 40k rules. I'm fairly certain that's what the End Times thing for Fantasy was; testing out sales reaction for a big change to their main money-maker IP.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Thu Nov 03 2016, 14:05

I ordered 10 of the raging Heroes Incubbi and I'm so excited to use them! Anybody else participated in the Kickstarters?

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Sat Nov 05 2016, 17:23

@Ynneadwraith wrote:
@Causalis wrote:

Non taken. But my problem isn't the clashing aesthetics of the minis (I build my own Inquisitioner and retinue for my Ad Mech). It's just that the game supports players who cherry pick the strongest units out of multiple codices to build a deathstar. In essence, they just put a patchwork-army on the table with no identity to itself whatsoever. What makes it even more frustrating is that other armies outside of the Imperium haven't got anywhere near the amount of BB allies and thus couldn't form such deathstars if they wanted to! Taking a mono-army should yield some advantage over an army consisting of 3+ factions (as in Age Of Sigmar) - but it doesn't, which is why the ally-mechanic is being abused so much.

That's a great idea actually, although it would be tricky to balance with in-codex deathstar units (like jetseer councils).

For awhile, it seemed like they were doing this to a degree with CADs being the only detachment with objective secured. Then came skyhammer, and the floodgates opened for all things space marine, and the rest is history. Maybe they could make a detachment that has a special rule cancelling Obsec from anything except other "Obsec Canceling Detachments" and limit it to only being allowed to be taken with additional "OBsec Canceling Detachments" of the same faction.

Such a detachment would basically create the situation you're talking about, fundamentally altering the meta without fundamentally altering the system.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Sat Nov 05 2016, 20:40

I like that idea. A lot!

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Sun Nov 06 2016, 00:07

I don't see the problem with taking silence sisters as incubi. If you are facing the immortal unit problem (invisibility or the like). Isn't like taking a super friends list just to win, it is taking a option to not automatically lose.
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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Sun Nov 06 2016, 01:48

Vect maintains control of the Dark City by showing himself willing and able to use the biggest and most destructive weapons available. Sucks they aren't technically available to us but a race of Pirates and slavers is the fluffiest way to play superfriends..

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 10:11

40k is clearly going in the direction of AoS where everything is modular. You work through formations and the larger detachments. You can throw in formations from allied factions relatively easy. You can go mono-faction and get better buffs or mix it up across your allied factions. In principle this is a much better philosophy for a game where customising your army is a key element of the hobby. Choosing a unique paint job, altering mini's to suit your tastes, converting models from other factions or third parties to represent your troops, these are all hallmarks of the game and hobby. It's a natural extension to do this with list building too. If my DE had some long-standing history with a elements from a particular Craftworld then why not have them ally on the battlefield to fight for honour (slaves)? The problems are based in the fact that 40k was not designed for this. 7th ed was built with some acknowledgement of allies but within this edition the game has fundamentally changed from the old CAD meta to a detachment meta. And many of the codexes took a massive leap in power level during this edition too. Add in the normalisation and evolution of fliers, super-heavies, knights and GMC's and the increasing power and import of the psychic phase and you have a game system that is completely out-of-whack. In principle the idea of allies/formations/pick-and-mix is sound, but in practice you can't simply throw that into an existing rule-set and game meta and expect it not to buckle.

Look at AoS (now they've got the game working with actual points values). That game was built for this sort of gameplay. now I've not played it yet but from what I see and hear it's a pretty good game now. It works. And you can literally play it however you want. This is what 40k should be. AoS works though because the rules were written to allow it to work without breaking the game. Sure I bet there are ways to game the system and build tough lists but it doesn't look like there's one build for each faction that everyone uses because it's so obviously broken. 40k's problems exist because the rules were not written taking into account that people will so obviously game it and take whatever they can from any faction they can to get an advantage. GW admits they don't play that way, they say they don't even understand why anybody would. And so they've written a ruleset that can be taken advantage of so easily.

At this point GW has to be aware their ruleset is unmanageable. They have to be looking at introducing 8th edition soon. If they can Sigmarise 40k without squatting anything or losing the huge variety of factions and units then 40k will be amazing going forward.

As for the psychic phase, the DE badly need anti-psyker. It should come in the form of the Haemonculai and their pain engines. All Haemies should have adamantium will and perhaps wargear to create an anti-psyker bubble. Chronos should put out an anti-psyker bubble around them. There should be more anti-psyker weaponry. Maybe tormentor grenade launchers should damage psykers? Maybe Helms of Spite should be wargear instead of artifacts. Maybe those anti-psyker bombs the Haemis throw should be cheaper so people will pick them up? DE do need some love though in dealing with psykers and the psychic phase. It's absurd from a fluff perspective that they're so lacking in this department. It's absurd from the way the game is played that they have so little answer to the single most troublesome aspect of the game.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 14:16

I disagree about "Sigmarizing" 40k. I don't think it'd be a good idea, and oversimplification of the rules would make the game less competitive. I'm not interested in the checkers version of 40k, compared to our current "chess" version. I don't think there is currently a singular way to play each faction, but rather, many ways to play many different factions, and combinations of factions. Space marines suffer from "Free" being a very attractive price tag, and so commonly used, but even within that, there are variations in application.

That said, I DO agree that DE should have more anti-psyker. I think one good rule would be to make an army-wide rule that says, "For purposes of deny the witch rolls, ALL Dark Eldar are considered to be level 1 psykers." It would make sense, since they're all psykers as a race, and they've all been trained since birth to suppress that psychic energy, they'd be sort of experts at denying the witch. Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 14:25

If nothing else, the lack of any interaction for DE players in the psychic phase is just bad design. Sitting there with nothing to do and no means to respond to your opponent is not fun.

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PostSubject: Re: silent sisters -> new incubi?   Tue Dec 20 2016, 15:56

I mean, Necrons also don't have interaction there, but I wouldn't say it's bad design against Necrons. It's only bad design for us because we already suck so bad against everything else, and by fluff we should have more psychic defense anyhow.

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