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 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow

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Subsanity
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Thu 13 Oct 2016 - 13:43

New player here, I currently have 987 pt list and want to expand to 1250 to 1500. Let me know what you think I would like some razorwings. But every one keeps telling me I need ravengers.

Archon agonizer SF parasite kiss
Succubus agonizer animus vita
venom 2x SC

5xTrueborn 4x blasters agonizer blast pistol
Venom 2x SC

5xKablite 1x Blaster
Venom 2x SC

5xKablite 1xBlaster
Venom 2x SC

6xScourges 4xHWB

6xMandrakes

I have only played 3 games thus fair.


Last edited by Subsanity on Sun 16 Oct 2016 - 2:08; edited 2 times in total
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Korona
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Fri 14 Oct 2016 - 2:27

How have you found the list performing in the games you've played?

The razorwing is a really good anti-infantry platform.  The four missiles firing together can put a lot of wounds into a unit very quickly.  If that sounds like a tool which would be useful in your games then it's definitely worth considering.  It's also a beautiful model, 50% of why I love playing mine is for how it looks. There's some interesting changes to how they work with the new Death from the Skies supplement which makes them even more powerful too, boosting your reserve rolls.

I've always found ravagers to be underwhelming.  It's worth considering that they used to be quite a bit cheaper in the 5E codex and its one of the units that took a straight nerf in this latest book. I think there's some nostalgia at play because other AT options are perfectly viable. Your scourge unit fills a similar niche to a ravager so it's not a major deficit. Including a razorwing can offer some backup anti-tank if you equip it with a pair of dark lances and I feel Dark Eldar do okay with AT spread through their army. It's not necessary to load everything onto one unit.

If you find you're lacking AT power as you increase your points level you can pump up your regular warriors a bit by adding a syrabrite with haywire grenades. I find dark lances often leave a tank with a HP or two remaining and that extra haywire shot can often make the difference between a damaged tank and a kill shot. Plus you can always charge into combat and zap it if it's being stubborn with 1HP remaining.

Other options for you as you grow your army would be to look into the Haemonculus covens supplement.  There's some fantastic options. The Grotesquerie is really powerful and having a legitimately scary close combat unit can really change how you play the game as Dark Eldar. It's also and interesting hobby project because the standard models suck pretty hard. They are okay in themselves but every model is in the exact same pose! Stormfiends from the Age of Sigmar range are a popular alternative and even work out marginally cheaper!
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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Fri 14 Oct 2016 - 5:05

You have helped me out big time actually. I do well poping tanks with the scourge and true born so yea the razorwings should be good. I never considered upgading the kablite for the gernades I may do that.
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Dodo_Night
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Sat 15 Oct 2016 - 20:00


I like your list! It is really interesting, especially with the mandrakes and the animus vitae for giggles ^^ I will give you a fair warning, the two times I have fielded a single razorwing it has been shot down, first by an aegis defence line with quad cannon and then by a forgeworld dreadnought . Lower point games that risk decreases (I played 4000 and 2000 points) but I did get unlucky in my jink roles xD I am going to see what 3 razorwings do for a 2000 points game but it is nice to have such a centerpiece for your DE army =D

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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Sun 16 Oct 2016 - 2:03

Im going to field two however I have to rework the mandrakes... I found out I can not start them in the venom with the Archon sigh.
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Tue 18 Oct 2016 - 13:47

Archon agonizer SF parasite kiss WWP
Succubus agonizer animus vita
Venom 2x SC
6x scourges 4x HWB

5xTrueborn 4x blasters agonizer blast pistol
Venom 2x SC

5xKablite 1x Blaster
Venom 2x SC

5xKablite 1xBlaster
Venom 2x SC

3xMandrakes
3xMandrakes

2x Razorwings 2x DL, SC 4x stock missiles.

Whats every one think of adding 5 more kablite in the venom and just dropping in the succubus and archon in with the scourges via WWP?


Last edited by Subsanity on Wed 19 Oct 2016 - 13:44; edited 1 time in total
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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Tue 18 Oct 2016 - 13:50

Can the scourges join the Archon and Succubus if there in a Venom?
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Tue 18 Oct 2016 - 21:20

@Subsanity wrote:
Can the scourges join the Archon and Succubus if there in a Venom?

No they can't. First of all, the Venom has a transport capacity of 5 and minimal scourge units are 5 man teams. Add in that scourges are bulky, thus they would take up 2 spaces in the transport not 1 then a unit of 5 Scourges can't fit in there. You have them join the Archon and/or Succubus then the unit would be 6 models counting as 11 or 7 models counting as 12 for space needed to fit in a transport that has a capacity of 5.

Then there is the fact that we have no transports that allow jump infantry to be transported in them. So to sum it up, jump infantry count as 2 models do to being bulky, they are jump infantry and don't have permission to embark on our transports, and there isn't enough room for all the models in a venom.
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Wed 19 Oct 2016 - 13:22

Not inside the venom. I thought they could just fly outside the venom.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Wed 19 Oct 2016 - 13:29

Yes, you could do that, but the units are seeking different targets.

Razorwings are great at anti-infantry shooting. Not so great vs armour. Keep in mind that those S6 missiles are able to target enemy fliers, so you do have some versatility there.

Also, I would recomend spilitting up the mandrakes into 2 squads of 3 rather than 1 of 6. This will help you grab objectives, and cause the enemy to waste turns shooting at 36 point squad.

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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Wed 19 Oct 2016 - 13:37

Yes the Mandrakes do well split I played this way last game. The venom will split off from the scourge as soon as the WWP has brought them in. Unless it is advisable to just deep strike them with out a WWP?
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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Wed 19 Oct 2016 - 16:26

I don't think you can deep strike Scourges + Venom together with a WWP.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Wed 19 Oct 2016 - 18:41

Ya... you definately cannot. You can put both in reserve, and cross all your fingers that they come in at the same time. Then cross all your toes for them to not scatter. Then cross your (running out of crossable appendages here) that the enemy doesnt "delete" the scourges.

You are better off just starting on the board and making use of your 24" haywire range TBH
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Wed 19 Oct 2016 - 21:37

@Subsanity wrote:
Yes the Mandrakes do well split I played this way last game. The venom will split off from the scourge as soon as the WWP has brought them in. Unless it is advisable to just deep strike them with out a WWP?

Units of different types cannot be joined into a single unit. So Independent characters that are infantry can join with anything that has infantry as a type (jet pack infantry, jump infantry, they can even join reaver jetbikes as they aren't classed as MC or Vehicles) but you can not join a monstrous creature or a vehicle. Not to mention that neither the Venom nor the Scourges have the Independent Character rule to join them together.

Of course there are some formations that break the rule of not being able to mix models of different types to form a single unit but formations don't seem to care about rules anyway.

So no you can't join the scourge with the Venom and use the WWP carried by the embarked character to deepstrike both the Venom (and it's occupants) and the unit of Scourge as a single unit.

Base Rule Book Independent Character wrote:
Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join units that contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. They can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!


Last edited by CurstAlchemist on Wed 19 Oct 2016 - 21:49; edited 2 times in total
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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Wed 19 Oct 2016 - 21:48

Editing list
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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Thu 20 Oct 2016 - 0:33

Archon agonizer SF parasite kiss WWP
Succubus agonizer animus vita
6x scourges 4x HWB

5xTrueborn 4x blasters agonizer blast pistol
Venom 2x SC

5xKablite 1x Blaster
Venom 2x SC

5xKablite 1xBlaster
Venom 2x SC

5xKablite 1xBlaster
Venom 2x SC

3xMandrakes 1x Nightfiend
3xMandrakes 1x Nightfeind

2x Razorwings 2x DL, SC 4x stock missiles

This is 1433 pts
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Thu 20 Oct 2016 - 1:48

I don't see the value in:

The agonizer on the Succubus, she should always take the ap2 weapon.

The Dracon at all.

The Nightfiends, or a fourth squad member in the mandrakes at all, if you mean you have 3 mandrakes and ones a sgt then my question is still why? your 1k list didn't do that.

the sixth Scourge.

I personally don't like:

Blasters on kabalites in venoms AND Dark lances on Razorwings. Each of these choices fully negate these ability for those squads to make use of their anti-infantry weapons in exchange for only 1 or 2 4 to glance 5+ to pen on av 12+. That's not very likely to do much, and furthermore the blasters negate the wonderful 36" range of the venoms for only 1 shot from the crew. That said, arguments have been made on behalf of both these choices, I'm trying to make the point that I don't see merit in making both those choices. I personally have really come to like shredders and bone stock raiders but that's too radical to suggest at present.

Taking a Succubus at all. You have no CC Squads. 'nough said.

The loadout on your archon. Why bother giving him a poison 2+ pistol if he's going to be precision deepstriking an anti-tank unit? Why buy an Agonizer on a Str3 Character at all, but really why buy an agonizer and not a soul trap; in for a penny in for a pound.


Final thoughts:

I get the goal of the list, and I think you're going to have a hard time with some very common choices like an abundance of rhinos or razorbacks, and marines in general because you're hemmoraging points on sub-optimal choices. I don't mean that you have the wrong tool for the job, I mean you have the tool setup wrong and you don't need to field every model you own. hemmoraging points doesn't matter below 1250 because often you can't field more than 1 extra unit from the 'wasted' points. At 1500+ tho that can be 2 or 3 additional units, and when you're handicapped with a bad matchup against the most common army in the game, starting 3 units down just makes it worse.

Looking forward to your next iteration!
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Korona
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Thu 20 Oct 2016 - 4:58

2x razorwings is probably overkill here since they're anti-tank units with a lot of role overlap with the venoms.

I agree that the succubus is a bit wasted here, the idea of taking her with some grotesques is a good way to make her work though. If you drop the agoniser and give her the AP2 glaive she can provide the anti-armour punch while the grotesques provide a meatshield to keep her save and goop high toughness models with flesh gauntlets.
You'd need to take a raider for that to work but shaving points from the areas suggested and dropping one of the razorwings leaves you plenty for 3 grots and a cheap raider. That's a pretty nice CC unit. You could even pump one up to an abberation giving you a helpful friend to take on challenges and leaving the succubus to dish out high AP punches.
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Thu 20 Oct 2016 - 16:19

Hmm already bought all these model. And have all but one venom and two razorwings built. So I need to find the best way to make this work. I have extra kablites and can pop arms off to remodel some. I need to play test for a bit.
My son was born on the 3rd so funds will be tight for a wile. I can start buying more after some time passes.
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Thu 20 Oct 2016 - 16:21

Is droping the scourge in without a WWP viable or just suicide?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Thu 20 Oct 2016 - 18:38

With haywire it's perfectly viable since you can aim to drop at 14-16 inches out. With heat lances it is not, at least not without 2 or three more squads of them as well.

I fully understand the cost and that you already own the above models, hence why I made a point that you don't need to field every model you own. No matter how you shake it your use of the succubus' only benefit is as a mule for that animus vitae. Your literally paying 105 pts, that's a whole kabalite squad with a blaster in a raider, to give the archon a mastercrafted pistol and a buddy when the only items of note in that whole interaction are the WWP and the animus vitae. Drop the pistol and give the AV to the archon. No succubus.

I understand that you do not own an additional squad to use there, but it is far better to realize that you are not viable at a certain point total then to roll up 5 units short.
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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Thu 20 Oct 2016 - 19:17

I appreciate all the advice and is why im here. Just trying to maximize what I can with what I have. I will play test with both ideas and see what happens. Thank you all
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Fri 21 Oct 2016 - 0:46

Hi, sorry to chime in a little late.

I'm in complete agreement that your stretching your collection too far, I honestly think @ 1250 you won't enjoy the tabletop experience of actually playing for long!

Stretching your collection as far as I feel comfortable doing so:

DE CAD 992

Archon, Blaster, AOM, HWG, Cannon Venom (160)
2 x 3 Mandrakes (72)
3 x 5 Warriors, Blaster, Cannon Venom (360)
AT Razorwing, 2 x Lance (140)
AI Razorwing, D & S Cannons (140)
5 x Scourges, HWB (120)

When you can afford them, buy 2 x Ravagers (you can always use them as Raiders) with Triple Lances they will round you up to 1250. However once you have Ravagers, you don't want Blasters on your Warriors, you make both Razorwings AI and you also SAVE 65pts, which allows you to bring Reavers for 63 leaving 10 spare. Assumes you make the Razorwings a Jetfighter Wing:

DE CAD 1240

Archon, Blaster, AOM, HWG, Cannon Venom (160)
2 x 3 Mandrakes (72)
3 x 5 Warriors, Cannon Venom (315)
Razorwing Jetfighter Wing (360)
5 x Scourges, HWB (120)
3 x Reavers, CC (63)
2 x Triple Lance Ravagers (250)

You now have Ravagers, Scourges & Reavers for your AT needs.

4 Venoms, Poison & the Razorwings for AI.

3 Ob. Sec. Venoms & Mandrakes to do your actual point scoring.

Oh, & you also have an Archon......
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Kabal of the poisoned shadow   Fri 21 Oct 2016 - 7:39

After all the advise im looking at a 1272 point and going to adjust down to 1250. Mor then likly goibg to drop the SC from both razorwings foe the points.


Archon agonizer SF parasites kiss
Succubus agonizer animus vitae
Venom 2x SC

5xTrueborn 3x blasters 2x SC
Venom 2x SC

5xKablite 1x Blaster
Venom 2x SC

5xKablite 1x Blaster
Venom 2x SC

5x Scourges 4x HWB

3x Mandrakes

3x Mandrakes

2x Razorwings 2x DL, SC 4x stock missiles
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