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Painjunky
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PostSubject: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Mon Sep 19 2016, 19:40

It been a while since I faced this bad boy (the stormsurge) and I get the feeling I will be facing him again soon.

Last time I just ignored him, focused on objs and killed the rest of his army (starting with markerlights). As that was a while ago I thought it might be interesting hearing your thoughts and experiences.

So without resorting to Eldarhammer Rolling Eyes ... how should I proceed with DE + covens? Ignore it, same as before or engage it? And if so, with what units and how?

Cheers. pirat
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Mon Sep 19 2016, 19:46

An important thing to remember is the FAQ. If it deploys its anchors, and you then Tank Shock it, it will be destroyed.

I tend to find Stormsurges a massive pain in the bottom. They are exceptionally difficult to cut down. Poison isn't great against them unless you waste a LOT of fire on them (which leaves the rest of his army undisturbed). Its a saving grace thats its only t6, 3+.

Based on that, I honestly think the best thing to do is Lance it to death. It has a horrendous number of wounds, but enough Lances should be able to slice it down within a couple of turns.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Mon Sep 19 2016, 19:55

Thanks Squidmaster!

Yeah lances (and dissies?) would be the weapon(s) to shoot at the stormsurge but would those couple of turns of fire possibly be more useful melting crisis/broadside/riptide suits Question
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Mon Sep 19 2016, 21:50

I think it really depends on whether it has a shield generator (or is in decent cover). A naked Stormsurge is pretty easy to take out with lances and dissies. 27 dissie shots (or 21 lance shots) should do the trick. If it has a shield generator or it's somehow in decent cover (assuming draft FAQ being used and having a toe in cover no longer works) then it gets twice as hard and should probably be ignored.

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Last edited by Count Adhemar on Tue Sep 20 2016, 00:21; edited 1 time in total
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Mon Sep 19 2016, 23:18

Per the faq I would think the most effective way to kill it would be a Grotesquerie. The grots are more back up plan though. Flag out the 2 raiders w/rams in close and then he can either anchor and hope they both die or not anchor and save you some shooting. Grots should do reasonably well against it, especially deepening on your latest experiment roll, and should allow the rest of your army to focus on objectives and dismantling his marker lights.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Tue Sep 20 2016, 00:04

We tried mathammering it for 2 months, when it was released. We tried to determine the optimal unit to kill it. We haven't found a way to statistically have a good chance to kill it while being point efficient. With the FAQ, the only viable way is ramming it. No other way allow us to be point efficient. Even with our best possible unit, in the best possible situation.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Tue Sep 20 2016, 00:20

@dumpeal wrote:
We tried mathammering it for 2 months, when it was released. We tried to determine the optimal unit to kill it. We haven't found a way to statistically have a good chance to kill it while being point efficient. With the FAQ, the only viable way is ramming it. No other way allow us to be point efficient. Even with our best possible unit, in the best possible situation.

3 x Dissie Ravager - 27 shots, 18 hits, 12 wounds, 8 unsaved (after FNP). If it's not in cover, it's dead. All for less than the base cost of the Stormsurge.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Tue Sep 20 2016, 05:09

3X Dissie Ravagers- 27 shots, 18 hits, 6 wounds (wound on 5+), 4 unsaved after FNP. With a 5+ cover (not hard to get), you'll get around 3 wound. Still very alive and very lethal.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Tue Sep 20 2016, 06:56

@dumpeal wrote:
3X Dissie Ravagers- 27 shots, 18 hits, 6 wounds (wound on 5+), 4 unsaved after FNP. With a 5+ cover (not hard to get), you'll get around 3 wound. Still very alive and very lethal.

D'oh! Mathhammer fail. You're right, although I disagree that cover is easy to find if the draft FAQ's are in force.

Tank shock if it's anchored then or just take out the markerlights and ignore it. MSU with Reavers and Cluster Caltrops might be an option, although I seem to recall it having some silly overwatch defence thing so maybe not...

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Tue Sep 20 2016, 17:38

Thanx guys!

Looks like ignoring it as I have done in the past is still the wisest option. Unless I can catch it without an invuln or ccver save.

I love using a grotesquerie in raiders which will be getting all up in his gills anyway so threatening a tankshock will be doable.

I'm a reaver nut too and i'm thinking they could be a thing. Eat the overwatch with grots and charge in the bikes, if they live, hit and run and charge again. I'm a bit worried bout stomps tho pale.

The FAQ of declaring targets for all weapons BEFORE shooting is better than it first appears as well.


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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Tue Sep 20 2016, 22:33

If I had to play against a tau with a stormsurge, I think I would go with a dissie raider spam, with prow shock on everything. (Or maybe just half.) The amount of dissie shot should be very effective against suits and with that many raider, the opportunity to ram it should present itsef.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Fri Sep 23 2016, 23:25

I don't think you'll see a Stormsurge without an inv, although expensive (at the same as 5 beastmasters) it makes the Stormsurge too susceptible to low ap weapons with it's middling toughness of 6.  So you'll usually see the Stormsurge rocking around 430-450 points.

A few Shock Prows to threaten a tank shock will deter it from dropping it's anchors, which is when it gets really nasty.

A heavy mech list might be viable as apart from the main gun and the one shot missiles it's only str5 on the rest of its weapons, and the ravager is a good option against it.  Also with the 4+ inv save the venom is also as effective as the dissie ravager.  Average wounds per round of shooting:
Ravager (3 Dissies) = 0.66 - on average 12 ravagers to kill Stormsurge
Venom (Dual Cannon)* = 0.88 0.30 - on average 9 27 venoms to kill Stormsurge
Ravager (3 Lances) = 0.55 - on average 14.5 ravagers to kill Stormsurge

Instant Death weapons in combat may be an option, but as they involve getting into combat with the Stormsurge that can prove differcult.  A word of note the last battle report I saw between Dark Eldar and Tau in a single turn the rest of the Tau army blew up 2 raiders that the Grots were advancing in, and then the Stormsurge which had its heels planted instant killed both units of Grots with Str10 large blast each Sad

I think the best option would be to close combat the rest of the Tau force with Grots, Courts, Beastmasters and Reavers while using poison to kill the Stormsurge.

Rathstar

PS. Interested to hear people's in game experience, as I have little against the Stormsurge.

EDIT: * I remembered that Gargantuan Creatures are only wounded on a 6 by poison. The revised stats means I'd leave Stormsurges to Dissies, Lances and Blasters, however as said by others its probably best to ignore the Stormsurge if possible and kill the rest of the Tau army.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Fri Sep 30 2016, 04:18

stormsurges are incredibly hard to deal with. :'(

And on a recent frontline gaming podcast, they said that in ITC format only a super heavy vehicle can ram a gargantuan creature. That''s something to keep in mind if you play competitively.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Wed Oct 26 2016, 03:31

In friendly games, ask your opponents not to bring one Smile
In competitive games, an allied detachment of Eldar totally solves the problem.

Allied Detachment (491pts)
1x Farseer on jetbike 115pts - ideally joins some random reavers, otherwise windriders; alternatively, you can bring a Spiritseer for 70pts and join the wraiths, but it's generally weaker.
1x 3 Windriders with Scatter Laser 81 pts - cheap & the most flexible troops choice.
1x 5 Wraithguard w/ Wave Serpent (Holo-Fields, second Shuriken Cannon) 295pts (I usually take 2x shuriken cannons, as it drives forward anyways and it's good rending vs 2+ saves - and still kills light vehicles and even medium ones if you get to the back).

You can fluff it in the way that these guys are held prisoners by the Cabal and are forced to fight for them. Wraithguard will normally obliterate in one shooting phase any kind of SH/Gargantuan; if you position your Serpent well so that Tau can't shoot it in the back (keep in mind deepstriking units too), they normally won't kill it before you will arrive - it's very survivable thanks to the shield, and Tau's s5 weapons spam is useless vs av12.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Wed Oct 26 2016, 03:51

What about hitting it with a Razorwing or Bomber?
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Thu Oct 27 2016, 02:41

Remember that it can shoot TWICE in a turn. Our flimsy AV 10 fliers are not going to enjoy an exchange of weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Thu Oct 27 2016, 03:19

@fisheyes wrote:
Remember that it can shoot TWICE in a turn. Our flimsy AV 10 fliers are not going to enjoy an exchange of weapons.

It only shoots twice if it has rooted in previous turn (so starting turn 2). Get yourself a shock prow and see how a rooted SS dies because of tank shock xD

But indeed, with lots of Skyfire options and Intercept, it is not like Flyers are a good thing to field vs Tau.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Fri Dec 09 2016, 06:39

Bit of a necro, but I'll be facing a SS at some point in the near future, so I was thinking about this.

I was really excited about the tank shocking idea, particularly since the new FAQ states that because ruins are difficult terrain, models can go right through the walls.  You can hide a vehicle out of LOS behind ruins and then tank shock them by plowing right through the wall, which appeals to me tremendously from a narrative standpoint.  Not really important for skimmers, but it's huge for things like Rhinos.

Then I thought about this a little more and realized that killing a SS with a tank shock is a bit of  long shot.  The SS auto-passes its morale test, then Death or Glories with an auto hit from either a SD AP1 Pulse Driver or a S10 AP2 smash that re-rolls to pen, and which you cannot jink.  The odds of being hulled out, exploding, or being stunned/immobilized are pretty high.  Venoms have the best chance because of the flickerfield.

It's probably still worth trying just for the huge return if it works, but you need to dedicate multiple vehicles to it, and I don't think I'd want to risk something as expensive as a Ravager.

I suppose you could always ally in a Wave Serpent.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Fri Dec 09 2016, 07:22

But if you are using allied Eldar, there are just to many better ways to deal with it. Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Fri Dec 09 2016, 08:32

Yeah, and aren't Wave Serpents nearing 120pts? Could have 2 Raiders for that...

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Fri Dec 09 2016, 08:48

Both with chain snares to insta-kill the stormsurge with!
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Fri Dec 09 2016, 09:05

Exactly. Spam enough Venoms with chain snares that they're too sh*t-scared to anchor the thing Wink

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Sat Dec 10 2016, 05:29

The big benefit of the Wave Serpent is downgrading pens so it's much hard to one shot with the DoG. One WS is much more likely to succeed than three Venoms.

But, yeah. There are far better ways to deal with a SS if you know you're facing it, but a WS is something useful in any list that can also be a SS counter.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Sat Dec 10 2016, 07:07

Ya, but who wants to deal with our buzz-kill cousins to get the transport?

Last time I hung out with a craftworlder it was all "Wah wah, we created a warp god who will eat all our souls" and "stop flaying the skin off my face, wah wah". Just not a fun group of people to hang with ;P
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs the tau stormsurge   Sat Dec 10 2016, 07:20

There's truth to that. I'm eyeballing a big lot of Craftworld used stuff, but.... they're Craftworld. I mean... ugh.

I'd rather scratch build a bunch of jetpacks and make me some Corsairs.

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