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 Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM

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Rewind
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Wed Sep 14 2016, 14:11

Hi guys,

So those of you you've weirdly been paying attention to my posts will know that I've recently gotten into actually playing 40K rather than just collecting models, due to my eldest (12) taking an interest.

After a few months of shopping & building he now has a 750 list, designed by me, which is extremely effective at ruining my own DE list:

AM CAD 750
Command Punisher, Las Cannon (330)
Exterminator, Las Cannon
2 x Veteran squads, 2 x Meltas, Chimeras (290)
2 x Wyverns (130)

740 + 10pts I can't remember where they go.

Basically, the problem I have is my son loves his Army, but all the AV is killing me & I don't want to make him take less tanks, but games aren't much fun (for me, he loves it).

I was running:

DE CAD 749
Lhamean, Cannon Venom (75)
5 Warriors, incl. Sybarite, HWG, Cannon Venom (120)
5 Warriors, Cannon Venom (105)
4 x Reavers, CC (79)
5 x HWB Scourges (120)
2 x Lance Ravagers (250)

I may just be being unlucky, but how can I squeeze in more AT?

Available units include the above plus:

Archon
Succubus
Haemy
3 x Lhameans
3 x Mandrakes
2 x Reavers
3 x Grots. (2nd Ravager above is their Raider playing Proxy)
Talos
Razorwing
Assorted rubbish ie. Hellions & Wyches

The best I can do after a morning of BattleScribeing is:

DE CAD 748
Lhamean, Cannon Venom (75)
2 x Warriors, incl. Blaster, Cannon Venoms (240)
3 x Reavers, CC (63)
5 x HWB Scourges (120)
2 x Lance Ravagers (250)

Basically dropping a Reaver & the Syb. (no WL trait for me) to squeeze in Blasters, normally I don't like Blasters on Warriors, but what else can I do?

I'd appreciate any advice you guys might have!


Last edited by Rewind on Wed Sep 14 2016, 14:12; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixed points)
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Azure Reaver
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Wed Sep 14 2016, 15:00

Just spit balling here.

It seems like you have a lot of AI for only two squads. Maybe drop one of the Venoms, and hide your troops, since you don't have a raider. That will give you enough points for 3 more reavers with CC. You could even put heat lances on them. Two squads of three reavers might be able to survive long enough to get close to his vehicles. I don't know the AV of those vehicles but I would imagine the CC would be a threat. I would drop the blasters on the warrior squads. Seems like you would have to be way too close to make use of them.

What does he tend to target first?

Maybe Aethersails on your ravagers so you can move around the board faster.

What is your strategy, that might help us help you better. I feel like I should point out that all of my knowledge is theoretical, I haven't played with my DE army yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Wed Sep 14 2016, 15:55

Thanks for the reply.

In regards to AV:

LRE = 14, 13, 10
LRP = 14, 13, 11
Chimera = 12, 10, 10
Wyvern = Chimera hull

He tends to always focus the Ravagers 1st with his Russ's, to get them jinking (we play faq). Against 20 x S5 or 4TL S7 + the 2 S9 Las Cannons, I usually end up Jinking or dead.

The Chimera he uses to play cat & mouse with the Venoms, trying to corner & flame-roast the contents.

Wyvern hide behind the Russ's, usually focusing the Reavers, Venoms & contents in that order.

We play on a 4" x 3" board, with a selection of 'cardboard box' building for LOS blocking & a set of Quake Cannon Craters for area terrain.


My strategy is to try & ignore the Russ's, focusing the Chimera with Ravagers to remove his Ob. Sec. & to give the Venoms something to shoot at, ideally snatching points later on.

Sometimes it works, but it tends to be the games where things explode after 1 Dark Lance pen.

I don't have enough Alpha against him, 2 x 3 Lances is all I can fire turn 1 if I go 1st & since I usually need to move a few inches, that's 4 @ BS4 & 2 snap firing Sad





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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Wed Sep 14 2016, 17:02

I know that you didnt list them, but some DL raiders would be nice. You can easily drop one of the venoms without doing much to your list.

BTW, you MUST have at least one character in your army (to be your warlord), otherwise no DE player would even take one (why give up the VP, ya know).

Honestly, you have 4 anti-tank units against 6 tanks. Maybe your target priority is off, where you need to be foccusing on those wyvers, and just playing your own cat-and-mouse game. You should have no problem taking out at least 1 tank each turn, and if you have enough cover on the board you should be able to use firing lanes to isolate single tanks, so that they dont get to shoot back (other than the barrage wyvers, but that is why you need to target them first).

Otherwise bring a talos with a heat lance, and just run it at him distraction-carifex style Wink

Best of luck bud.
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Azure Reaver
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Wed Sep 14 2016, 18:44

Well, no wonder you're having issues. That board is really small and only hurts you. Try and play on a bigger area, give yourself some room to move.

Also, get those wyverns first. Maybe get a cheap haem with wwp and deep strike your talos next to them. Heat Lance and distraction carnifex.
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Wed Sep 14 2016, 19:49

@Fisheyes

Thx for the ideas.

Just to note, you don't have to have a character, just you don't get a war Lord trait if it's not a character.

Talos idea with dropped Venoms is the plan........
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Azure Reaver
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Wed Sep 14 2016, 19:53

Good luck!
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Wed Sep 14 2016, 20:58

If you don't have a large enough table and have the floor space (can free it up by moving furniture and such) you can always do the miniature wargaming time honored tradition of Floorhammer.
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Thu Sep 15 2016, 09:27

You need the Haemonculus a talos and a chronos to use this special formation to drop it in with a WWP. But once you get them, it's nearly impossible to kill.

If you don't want to spend so much money buy a talos kit, build a chronos and use stuff to convert a warrior into Haemonculus and buy a box of three Skaven Storm fiends and convert those with the left over parts into talos.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Thu Sep 15 2016, 10:22

Roughly half of your points are useless against the armour, which in a game at that scale will make for lots of pain. I have had a similar painful experience against an Armoured Company. Although you don't have all the models to do this, here is a plausible type of list to try (you will need to proxy some Venoms as Raiders).

No point in having the Reavers with essentially a hard counter in the Wyverns, ditch them from the list. The Venoms are almost at the same level.

Lhamaean in Raider with Dark Lance
5 Kabalite Warriors with Blaster in Raider with Dark Lance
5 Kabalite Warriors with Blaster including Sybarite with Haywire Grenades in Raider with Dark Lance
Raider with Dark Lance
5 Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters
2 Ravagers with 3 Dark Lances

Talos would be slightly tricky for his list too, but I suspect there is enough firepower to knock it out.

Strategy wise, you should be concealing the Ravagers from view if at all possible, and lining up so only a single target is visible, again if possible. At the very least have another vehicle in front of them to offer you a cover save. Seems unlikely the games will go the distance, so don't stress the obsec too much. Get rid of the Punisher if you can - Heavy 20 gun is on the ridiculous side of silly against us.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Thu Sep 15 2016, 18:35

I dont think he requires a full Dark Artesian, as they run at 350 pts (with the WWP and 4+ FNP). Just a single 120 pt Taloi with the heat lance should make his son sweat (and teach him target priority Razz ).

I believe you do NEED a character to be battleforged. Can someone else confirm please? (otherwise I have been giving away free VPs all this time for nothing)

IMHO blasters in warrior squads are always wasted points. You will be dead after taking a single shot at 18", and that single shot rarely 1 shots a tank. Stay at 36" with the raiders DL.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Thu Sep 15 2016, 21:01

Don't need a character to be battleforged, but you do need to designate someone as the warlord, who has to be a character if you have one. If you have a non-character warlord then you don't get a warlord trait.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Fri Sep 16 2016, 08:18

I was having a think about your situation, and have a slightly different suggestion:

Lhamaean - Raider Dark Lance 70
5 Kabalite Warriors - Raider 95
5 Kabalite Warriors - Raider 95
5 Scourges 4 Haywire Blasters 120
Talos (Warlord) 120
Ravager Dark Lances 125
Ravager Dark Lances 125

The list loses a couple of Blasters from the Warriors and Dark Lances from those squads to squeeze in a Talos. The Talos can be used to limit the freedom for the Chimera Veterans to race forward and try to flamer you to death.

The Warriors in Raiders are aiming for side armour on the Chimeras with the Disintegrators or the Veterans if they get out, or the Wyverns if you can get to there. The rest can focus the Russ tanks and Chimeras.

I still prefer his list against yours, but that is the nature of Dark Eldar against armour.

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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Fri Sep 16 2016, 14:23

Kantalla, thanks for the comment about warlord. Something I had clearly forgotten.

I will second Kantalla's list above. If I were to make a change, it would be to try to fit a 5pt heat lance on the talos. But this would mean your not running, which could be a mistake. Your choice though
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Fri Sep 16 2016, 14:54

@Kantalla wrote:
I was having a think about your situation, and have a slightly different suggestion:

Lhamaean - Raider Dark Lance 70
5 Kabalite Warriors - Raider 95
5 Kabalite Warriors - Raider 95
5 Scourges 4 Haywire Blasters 120
Talos (Warlord) 120
Ravager Dark Lances 125
Ravager Dark Lances 125

Thanks for the suggestions, I've been thinking about similar lists for the last few days, sadly unless I proxy the 3 Raiders, it will be a while before I can sneak their purchases home past my wife Smile

I have learnt a new found respect for Raiders recently, I had assumed Venoms would always be my go to transport! I had planned on picking up 2 for my Grotesquerie, but I'm still converting Grots.

@Kantalla wrote:

I still prefer his list against yours, but that is the nature of Dark Eldar against armour.

Sadly me too, but then since I planned & wrote his list, I get some small comfort from that Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Help to beat myself :( DE 750 vs AM   Fri Sep 16 2016, 22:43

Ok, just a quick update.

We just played & a DE victory!

I went with:

DE CAD 748

Lhamean, Cannon Venom
2 x 5 Warriors, Blasters
3 x Reavers, CC
5 x Scourges, HWBs
2 x Triple Lance Ravagers
Talos, HL, CF (WL)

'Ditsraction Carnifex' Talos worked like a charm, drawing fire from the Ravagers, which resulted in usually only 1 jinking per turn, which drastically increased my ability to hit back. As much as it didn't atually kill anything, it soaked fire all game surviving to the end (Turn 5) with 1 HP left.

I also got lucky & went 1st, which allowed me to Explode a Chimera turn 1, which took most it's contents with it.

Some lows,

Ravager again failing to hit with all 3 lances @ full BS. I find them to be 'nope' machines a little to often Sad

Scourges, arrived turned 3 & did nothing. Lost 2 HWB & the Rifle Turn 4, but did then manage to strip a single HP - I may drop Scourges for a few games.

Wyverns, Wyverns eat Warriors & Reavers lol - although in almost the final action of the game, his T/L 2nd shot scattered further than his 1st roll, hitting itself & taking it's own final wound Smile


Game 3 is all to play for, I will give him the actual list from my OP (Still reads as Over Powered in my head not Original Post) as he ran a slightly different list with only 1 Wyvern & some wasteful upgrades.

Side sponsons on a LR are a total waste in our experience & since I'm here getting help from a whole community of gamers, it only seems fair I keep the skill creep to a minimum & he is 12.

I'll finally start bringing my Razorwing soon, she is finaly built, probably adding back Venoms to round upto 1000. He has a Basilisk & a Hydra, so yes, yet again I continue to counter myself & cause myself headaches!


Last edited by Rewind on Fri Sep 16 2016, 22:45; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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