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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Mon Sep 26 2016, 18:40

Quote :
I also concur about NS on the grot raider. 3+ jink is nice. Generally it is still dead by the end of turn 2, but with our 30" movement it doesnt really need to survive past that. How were you able to distract him enough to ensure its survival?

Against the Daemons it was fairly easy, since he had no shooting. So Turn 1 I just moved the Raider 6", let the four Grotesque with the Succubus disembark and then they charged the Daemonettes.

The second game I played was against Orks. He had the first turn so I hid the Raider behind an imperial bastion and then turboboosted it up the field. Since my lone Reaver blew up his Trukk, his Nobs weren't fast enough to reach the Raider on his turn. I purposefully turboboosted it to his right flank where it didn't have to fear being charged by anything. At 800 points he also had to focus his firepower in order to bring something down. And since the Raider was already in his face, blowing it up wouldn't accomplish anything - he reasoned that the explosion would hardly harm the Grotesques and Succubus. He did of course shoot a bit at it to force it to jink. And after the Grots had disembarked, the Raider was not as much of a priority as for example my Ravager or the Venom that held my objective marker and gave me points every turn. This of course came back to bite him, because on Turn 3 the Raider could just grab me the objective in the middle for some more points.

It is also a bit of psychology. If I tell my opponent that the Raider has a 3+ jink and he can gladly blow it up, but by doing so he won't have enough left to take on my Venom(s) or the Ravager then most people will just ignore it.

Quote :
Do you think having the Helm of Spite would have helped against that deamon player?

Yes and I was seriously considering taking it before going. But I had to choose between the Helm and the Armour Of Misery and in the end I wanted that -2 LD to win close combat fights.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Sep 29 2016, 03:00

So I went to NOVA earlier this month and was the only Dark Eldar player, or at least the only one maining them. I ended up going down 2-6 but aside from meeting some truly awesome people and collecting some fabulous Dark Eldar worthy stories of debauchery, I had some neat tabletop stories too. In particular I fought against a Daemons player running the typical Khorne dogs, Screamers, and Fateweaver. I ran my usual 2 Grotesqueries with a Dark Eldar CAD for support, bringing a Tantalus along for the sheer intimidation factor and to cram an ungodly number of Grots into it. We were playing The Relic. Now I'd played against almost this exact list in a previous tournament and nearly won, so I felt confident going into this one.

My opponent elected to go second and I spent my first turn picking off some dogs with long range weapons. My Tantalus was in reserve and my 3 Raiders with Grots were forming a protective barrier as I turtled in the corner. As I expected, my opponent ran ALL his Daemons up the board and hesitated to charge me. This allowed me to walk my Grots out and subsequently punch 2 units of Screamers and one unit of Dogs off the table. Thinking that was a fluke, my opponent moved even more Daemons up to fill the gap. I punched them off too, and by now had consolidated on the relic with 2 full units of fearless Grotesques. At this point he pulled out all the stops and charged all his remaining Dogs against a single unit holding the relic. The Grotesques survived with a single man and all the Dogs died as my second squad came in for backup. Turn 3 was also when my Tantalus flew on the board and annihilated some Screamers.

Entering turn 4 I had 3 full units of Grotesques, a Tantalus, all my HQs, and 4 objectives including the Relic. All the Khornedogs were gone and half the Screamers were punched off the table. He began using Fateweaver offensively now which, since I rolled +1 Toughness on my one Grotesquerie table, ended up with my Relic squad soaking D-shots like they were spitballs and Fateweaver bouncing off the table like a basket ball due to perils. This was about the time he was pacing the table, shaking his dice and frantically trying to figure out how to get me off the objectives.

Long story short, he never managed to kill the Grots. We went to turn 7 with me punching Screamers every turn, but because of his corrupted objectives and his ability to deny the Relic by being near it (curse 7th edition) he managed to secure a win with just 2 units of Screamers and an ailing Fateweaver left on the board. It was a tough match and I damn near won, were it not for a few tactical errors early on involving positioning.

Overall the Grotesques were frustratingly difficult for MSU lists in general to deal with as they couldn't be killed easily and once they gained Zealot they turned into murderballs. A Battle Company ended up getting mauled in round 8 and a Guard list bit the dust in round 2 the same way. If I'd backed them up with an Eldar or Harlequins formation instead of a Dark Eldar CAD I think they would have been even more powerful.

The Tantalus, while neat, did not earn its points except as an intimidating board presence. There was one incident where it managed to tank shock invisible Genestealers off an objective since it's physically larger than a Baneblade and can claim objectives by sheer bulk, but mostly it just exploded a lot.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Sep 29 2016, 08:48

@ Causalis - Thanx for the write up!
I too have seen grot squads get caught out in the open and shot to pieces more than once. I'd just like to mention that Grots CAN take a ton of shooting if you are use them carefully. That is, you make sure they always have a cover save or an invuln, even if their raider blows up.
That heamy can also stand out front, tank a bit and spread wounds around with "look out sir".

@ TeenageAngst - I agree, the grotesquerie is excellent at ripping up MSU armies. My Battle company buddies fear and hate my roid-brutes!
BTW reavers tag-team with grots like it was always meant to be! I love you
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Sep 29 2016, 09:02

I thought demons hold an objective they have once held, but only if there isn't an enemy unit next to it.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Sep 29 2016, 09:06

@CptMetal wrote:
I thought demons hold an objective they have once held, but only if there isn't an enemy unit next to it.

Me too, although I'm not sure how it interects with ObjSec (if the daemons had it).

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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Sep 29 2016, 09:28

I just looked up some stuff about the Daemons because it was so frustrating to play against the 2++ Daemonettes with The Mask. Turns out The Mask is not allowed to join any squad. Seriously? This really pisses me off. There is absolutely no excuse to not know such a crucial detail when going to a tournanment. I could have just picked off the Mask (since the Girmoir only conveys the +2 to invul to the squad of the item bearer, so The Mask wouldn't have profited from it) and stopped it from ever using its dancing ability in the first place. 5++ (4++ with Cursed Earth) re-rollable is not exactly tanky. One round of shooting would have been enough. Urgh, stupid Daemon player! >_<

@Painjunky wrote:
I too have seen grot squads get caught out in the open and shot to pieces more than once. I'd just like to mention that Grots CAN take a ton of shooting if you are use them carefully. That is, you make sure they always have a cover save or an invuln, even if their raider blows up.

Looking back my Grots never really stood in cover. They killed some Ork Bikers but couldn't consolidate far enough to claim cover. In another game, the Ork player outflanked with 4 of those infiltrating Orks with flamers and got like 22 hits on the Grots with only their FNP to save them. The problem here is that the Grots would either have to charge a unit in cover (to be able to consolidate into that cover after they beat them up), which would result in them swinging at Ini 1, which is bad. Or they charge targets that aren't in cover, such as tanks or fast units with a jink like bikes etc. which will leave them standing in the open.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Sep 29 2016, 10:39

Ive found most players keep their units in or near cover or even out of LOS wherever its possible in this ultra shooty edition.

If grots are charging, swinging at Int 1 usually isn't a problem. They are tough enough to survive the few enemy CC attacks (heamy helps here). Your Archon or Succy will have full Int.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Sep 29 2016, 14:23

TeenageAngst, did you feel that the tantalus was able to draw a lot of fire away from your other transports?

Glad to hear that we do have some competitive units (grots) that were able to at least make the playing field somewhat even. Did you run into any armour spam? I am curious how you would deal with it using your S5 grots
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Sep 29 2016, 21:45

Battle company is often armour spam as transports are free. So yes grots do work.
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Sep 29 2016, 22:14

Since Grots can damage any vehicle with rear armour 11 they can take on a lot of vehicles. There aren't many tanks etc. that have AV 12 on the rear.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Mon Oct 03 2016, 06:29

@fisheyes wrote:
TeenageAngst, did you feel that the tantalus was able to draw a lot of fire away from your other transports?

Glad to hear that we do have some competitive units (grots) that were able to at least make the playing field somewhat even. Did you run into any armour spam? I am curious how you would deal with it using your S5 grots

The Tantalus was either immediately primaried, in which case it ate about half a shooting phase, or it was ignored until it became necessary to deal with it, in which case it promptly exploded. I've run it in two tournaments, the other being doubles teams, and there it most definitely was a performer. I find people who don't know what it is or how it works hear "12 S5 AP2 shots" and immediately lose their minds. It is physically large and intimidating, and it moves very fast. If you've ever played against someone who runs a Baneblade, when they move it it is scary. This basically has the same mental effect, except instead of 6" it's moving 36".

I found very little armor spam actually. What did exist was usually part of MSU armies and I mulched it effectively. Usually I concentrated fire from my stronger shooty units and charged the guys inside, but the grots tore apart more than one Rhino.
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Oct 06 2016, 01:49

Quick question since I am constantly going over this:

Do any of you guys use the Helm Of Spite? This gives us at least a bit of defensive capability against the Psychic Phase. If you use it:

1. Do you use it in a TAC list? If so is it an auto-include or just if you have points to spare?

2. Which character do you give it? The Archon or the Succubus and if you give it the Helm, do you put them in transports? Do auras work from open-topped vehicles? I know they don't work from closed transports...

3. Is the Helm worth its points?
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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Oct 06 2016, 02:54

I don't use it. My Succubus needs the AoM, and I don't run Archons much, and when I do its just shadowfield agonizer (sometimes soul trap too)

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Oct 06 2016, 06:43

@Causalis wrote:
2. Which character do you give it? The Archon or the Succubus and if you give it the Helm, do you put them in transports? Do auras work from open-topped vehicles? I know they don't work from closed transports...
Can't say I have used the Helm of Spite, but the FAQ ruling on transports is that auras do not work from transports, open topped or otherwise. Essentially the embarked unit counts as being off table unless otherwise specified, such as when firing through a firing point.

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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Oct 06 2016, 14:30

Since you don't use the Helm: What do you do against Eldar, Grey Knights, Daemons etc.? Just sit back in the Psychic Phase and watch your opponent cast spell after spell?
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Thu Oct 06 2016, 20:11

I have not run into psyker heavy armies that often, but yes, without a Helm of Spite it means not having much of a defence against the psychic phase.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Fri Oct 07 2016, 13:32

I also go for the AoM over the HoS (each character can only take 1 relic), but I rarely see enemy psychic spam. Much like many things, the psychic phase just becomes another "I cant do anything about it, so just ignore it" part of the game. Like flyers and deathstars.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Tue Oct 11 2016, 03:34

Had a really fun game today with my DE and harlies.
The Talos from my Dark Artisan killed Abbadon in melee, after munching through several squads of marines and a hellbrute.

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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Tue Oct 11 2016, 03:34

Had a really fun game today with my DE and harlies.
The Talos from my Dark Artisan killed Abbadon in melee, after munching through several squads of marines and a hellbrute.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Tue Oct 11 2016, 17:12

I love the DA. If we could take a second Taloi in that squad, it would be OP. Did you WWP in, or walk up the board?
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Wed Oct 12 2016, 00:29

@fisheyes wrote:
I love the DA. If we could take a second Taloi in that squad, it would be OP. Did you WWP in, or walk up the board?
Walked up the board into a big mess that my grotesquerie made. One unit of grots died turn 1, but the other one lasted a while.

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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Sun Oct 30 2016, 15:42

This weekend I played multiple games against my buddy's Orks again - even a big 2500 points game where I could bring all my stuff Dark Eldar that I have collected so far.

My observations so far:

Ravager

I didn't even bother to bring one. I just proxied mine for a second Raider. Someone at my LGS told me that he in all seriousness thinks that the Ravager is an excellent tank-hunter and that Dark Eldar are one of the best anti-tank armies in the game because we have so many lances. I informed him that the Dark Kin are laughable when I compare their anti-tank options to those of my Adeptus Mechanicus army and that for those 125 points the Ravager costs me I can get so much better stuff that is way more effective at taking down tanks. But in his opinion, the Ravager is just awesome since he only needs a single penetrating hit to blow up any vehicle. I told him that that is a very unlikely outcome and he said that his dice probably roll better than mine. Anyway...

Reaper

Instead of the Ravager I took a Reaper which can actually strip off HP from vehicles! His 5" blast is also neat because it has Pinning.

Mandrakes

They were pretty awesome! I took 7 of these guys and their shooting is actually quite annoying for the enemy. Very fun unit, gonna take it more now.

Reaver Jetbikes

Played 3 squads of 3 bikes with heatlance and CC. Pure sugar! They popped transports and tanks quite reliably and helped me out in close combat. Will probably be a mainstay of my army from now on.

Archon

First time I took this dude! I loaded him up with his 2++, the soultrap and the agoniser (getting more strength means re-rolling wounds so the soultrap is not wasted), as well as the Animus Vitae (did nothing). Swapped it out for the Archangel of Pain which also did almost nothing but that was because my opponent just rolled stupidly lucky (he had to test on -5 LD because of a squad of Grots from the Grotesquerie and the Succubus with AoM were close by). Probably would have annihilated a whole unit of Nobs, some bikers and Mega-Nobs. Will try it again.

The Archon himself was actually quite good in melee. He smashed the Warboss's face in in a challenge and then took down the Painboy, thus emerging with S7 (Painboy was already down to 1 wound when the Archon finally got to try his blade on him). Quite hilarious but then the Shadowfield failed me and he took a rocketlauncher to the face. How do you play around this? After three test-games it seems to me that he shouldn't stand up front and soak up the damage because you only need to roll a single 1 to see him go down. My friend suggested to still hide him behind his Grotesque-Bodyguard and just challenge whatever character there is, since his 2++ will then come in handy in the challenge.

I think in bigger games (1850 points and above) I'll take him. Maybe even in smaller games as an alternative for the Succubus. 2+ armour guys would then become a slightly bigger problem in melee but most of the time my Grotesque can still kill them anyway or I just shoot them with the Dissicannons.

Wyches

Also tried 10 Wyches in a Raider. Blew up Turn 1, killing 7 Wyches. They did nothing. After the game I asked my buddy against which unit he would use them. He said Slugger-Boys so we made a quick simulation where my 10 Wyches (three could re-roll to-wound hits). 1 died to overwatch and the other 9 killed 4 or 5 Boys. Not worth it in my book. Maybe they are actually better against Marines because even losing 1 or 2 tac marines hurts the squad way more than losing 4 or 5 boys does.

Dark Artisan

Akways good. This time I just deployed them normaly so that they would soak up damage from Turn 1. My plan worked really well!

Scourges

Haywire Scourges for the win! They just delete a vehicle per turn if they should survive after they come onto the table.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Mon Nov 21 2016, 13:32

So played again last weekend, vs a 1500 pt Ultramarine/Knight list. The marines were not too brutal (just some tactical squads in rhinos, and two podding assault cannon dreds).

Once again the knight was able to really throw me off my game. Even playing maelstrom, by the end of turn 2 I still had 0 points (unlucky cards) despite controlling 3 objectives and controlling 3/4 table quarters.

Going with a MSU list, and playing with a Beta strike I was able to dance around the knight for the whole game (I dont think it made its points back), but he was still able to protect his castle, and just sit there collecting his objectives. After 3 turns of trying to draw the knight out, I just DS in my DA and one raider of Grots to attempt to shift him. Needless to say the knight turned around and just stomped everything off the board.

By the end of the game I had killed most of his infantry, but basically none of his vehicles (2 rhinos, 2 pods, 2 dreds and the knight).

MVP was two fold. #1 MVP: beastmaster with 1 beast. 20pts to run around charging rhino rears and contesting objecives (unfortunately most of his stuff was ObSec). Made me LOL when he targeted it with his 360 pt knight

MVP #2: haywire grenade. Put one of these on my succi who DS with the grots. Threw it when she landed (putting out 1 hp), then got a penetrating hit on a dred when she was charged (doing nothing and promptly getting squashed). Will be throwing a lot more of these around in the future.

All in all, I really need to come up with a solid anti-knight strategy, since 2 of the last 3 games involved them.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Mon Nov 21 2016, 13:46

Hmmm, that knight does sound troublesome.

How would two squads of deep-striking Haywire Scourges do?

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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: The Dark Archives   Mon Nov 21 2016, 17:47

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How would two squads of deep-striking Haywire Scourges do?

Mathhammer says that they will strip off 4 HP because of the Ion Shield. Remember that he chooses the direction the shield faces in YOUR shooting phase! Keeping that in mind I would probably go with two squads of Heatlance Scourges and hope that one or two of them will get a penetrating hit and the "Explodes!" result, thus stripping off D3 additional HP.

But to be fair, the normal Knight Paladin is not that big of a deal. The Rapidfire Battlecannon is meant to kill MEQs (and it will hurt our Talos) but since most of our infantry is in a vehicle anyway he shouldn't have good targets for those shots. And the two heavy stubber are just bad.

Sure, his D-Sword is nasty in close combat but then again, so is every D-Weapon. I have a Knight Paladin myself and to date he was always just a big distraction carnifex for my enemy to dump anti-tank weapons into. Even against Orks he is mediocre! However, he one me one game when he charged an invisible Scatterbike-Blob and stomped them into the ground. There was never a more satisfying feeling than watching that huge behemoth pummel the cheese out of those Eldar. Served my opponent right for playing that grossly underpriced unit!
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