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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Scalpel Squadron   Tue Aug 23 2016, 13:26

Hey guys, I was considering using an Scalpel Squadron to reliably use null-deployment tactics, but then it dawned on me that this formation is not as reliable as it seems.

If you lose the deployment roll, it becomes useless, as if you null deploy, he will simply give you the first turn so you have to DS with the scalpel squadron and kill it, winning the game instantly. The formation only works if you win the initiative roll, null deploy and then give the opponent the first turn.

Am I getting this right? I always heard it was a safe way of using null-deployment tactics so I accepted it and didnt give it much thought, but frankly once I did, It doesnt feel safe at all. Is there something I'm missing?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Tue Aug 23 2016, 13:39

Why do you automatically get killed if you deep strike?

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Tue Aug 23 2016, 13:46

Count Adhemar wrote:
Why do you automatically get killed if you deep strike?

This. Completely wiping out both Venoms and all ten Wracks isn't that easy to do in a single round. Even for armies that are capable, you can always deploy out of range.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Tue Aug 23 2016, 14:04

There's also the option to take more than one Scalpel Squadron if you feel it's too risky with just one.

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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Tue Aug 23 2016, 14:22

Are you honestly saying that 2 venoms and 10 wracks are hard to kill to any meta army?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Tue Aug 23 2016, 15:17

Hide them out of LOS and yeah, they're hard to kill. Ignore the temptation to go for the bonus First Blood points. It's a trap!

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Tue Aug 23 2016, 18:03

BizarreShowbiz wrote:
Are you honestly saying that 2 venoms and 10 wracks are hard to kill to any meta army?

In a single round of shooting? Yes. Barring horrendous misfortune on your scatter, deploying them in order to ensure a single turn of survival seems incredibly simple.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Wed Aug 24 2016, 01:55

Meta armies are confined to being expected to be played on Tournament maps with tournament levels of cover. Excepting thunderfire spam, which the rest of your list by definition should be strong against, and drop pod/Wulfen lists, which you shouldn't be null deploying against anyway, that truckload of cover is why you'll be fine.

Of course you guys have a different scene and ruleset in Spain so the meta-tailoring attributes common to ITC may be alien to you.
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Azure Reaver
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Wed Sep 07 2016, 06:28

A different question about scalpel squadrons: What is the most effective way to use them?

Assume that you are taking them in your army, for whatever reason. Is it best to get them close for CC or to sit back in the venoms and shoot? It seems like the best way would be to drive them in with the Venom and assault.

On a side note with Wracks, is an ossefactor ever worth taking?

I have never played with wracks before and have not heard great things.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Wed Sep 07 2016, 17:29

I use them to bat cleanup, and take out whatever weakened target of opportunity presents itself.

The ossefactor is useful, but it's on the gravy list: last to take, first to cut.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Wed Sep 07 2016, 18:06

Jimsolo wrote:
BizarreShowbiz wrote:
Are you honestly saying that 2 venoms and 10 wracks are hard to kill to any meta army?

In a single round of shooting? Yes. Barring horrendous misfortune on your scatter, deploying them in order to ensure a single turn of survival seems incredibly simple.

Don't listen to them lol... There is no way 2 venoms and 10 wracks will survive a single round of shooting from any half competent tournament list minus deathstars.

A null-deploy with scalpel squadron going first is a gamble at best, and against eldar or tau, is pretty much a guaranteed loss.

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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Wed Sep 07 2016, 23:37

Thanks, I thought I was taking crazy pills here Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Thu Sep 08 2016, 04:07

Skulnbonz wrote:
Jimsolo wrote:
BizarreShowbiz wrote:
Are you honestly saying that 2 venoms and 10 wracks are hard to kill to any meta army?

In a single round of shooting? Yes. Barring horrendous misfortune on your scatter, deploying them in order to ensure a single turn of survival seems incredibly simple.

Don't listen to them lol... There is no way 2 venoms and 10 wracks will survive a single round of shooting from any half competent tournament list minus deathstars.

A null-deploy with scalpel squadron going first is a gamble at best, and against eldar or tau, is pretty much a guaranteed loss.

If you play on an open table with no terrain of any kind, sure.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Thu Sep 08 2016, 07:26

Exactly. There really aren't that many units in this game who can either ignore LOS completely or move far enough to get a unit into LOS that is hiding behind a building or ruin and still have sufficient firepower to remove that unit. If you're playing on tables without LOS blocking terrain then that's an issue with your meta.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Thu Sep 08 2016, 07:31

And given that most ITC tables are tuned around ample cover, to the degree where it's been discussed if ITC is too assault favored, that isn't really a problem.

As I've said before on this topic: I can't think of many meta-lists that wipe out 4 squads with cover turn 1 that you would also benefit from null deploying against. Anyone capable of that you will not benefit from deep striking on.

For me the real problem is I am not willing to give up 1/3rd of my list building real estate for Null deploy.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Thu Sep 08 2016, 12:57

Well, to put it simply, i play a LOT (and i mean a lot) of tournaments. I can count on one hand the number of times TRUE line of sight blocking terrain is available. Less than that when true los blocking terrain is not in the center of the table, but in your deployment zone. Why would that be important? because if you are in the center of the table, the enemy can move to be able to see you, THEN shoot you off the board. Contrary to popular belief here, two Venoms DO take up quite a bit of space.

Not to mention things like Thunderfire cannons, Eldar jetbikes, Hornets, Warp Hunters, Wyverns, oh yeah, and DROP PODS.

So if you truly believe that in tournaments, a null deploy list is not only possible but a good idea, more power to you. In reality, there are just too many hard counters to it for it to be used as a primary deployment strategy.


HOWEVER, I did null deploy in a tournament once. All his models had at BEST a 48" range after movement, so I deployed a single lahmeian 49" away without worry. So in some situations, sure, go for it.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Thu Sep 08 2016, 14:04

Dark Eldar null deployment is always going to be optional, anyway.

There's no reason you can't bring it, and if faced with an army you just can't fathom surviving a turn of shooting against, you can still start everything on the table, and the SS just becomes two additional venoms that can DS turn one.
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Thu Sep 08 2016, 21:36

Jimsolo, on that, we agree 100%.
If you want to do it, try it, but if going first, deploy everything anyway, deepstrike the venoms to try to get first blood with em.

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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Thu Sep 08 2016, 22:30

Interesting thread & mentioning it only because no one else has.

In the spirit of actively trying to null deploy (for whatever reason)

Mandrakes pair well with the SS, as they are dirt cheap at 36pts, 2+ in cover so increase your chances or survival till turn 2 & maybe score an objective to.
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Thu Sep 08 2016, 23:13

I use 3 mandarles for null deployment shenanigans. The are also very good blocking scouts.

I wrote a tactica article not that long ago if you want details on how to use them, @Rewind. Its linked on the Dark Eldar gudes in this same section.

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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Fri Sep 09 2016, 15:53

Lols, in that case it was probably where I got the idea from Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Mon Sep 12 2016, 07:04

Stopping in for a moment of wishlisting but, this formation would be more potent if adding more squads and venoms was an option.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Mon Sep 12 2016, 10:18

Wekl, you can take multiple Scalpel Squadrons
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Mon Sep 12 2016, 18:19

That's true but, if you are playing with ITC rules you'll be limited in what else you can bring due to a three detachment limit
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Scalpel Squadron   Mon Sep 12 2016, 22:04

I'd like to see the DE core detachment get the ability to automatically arrive by DS on turn 1. That's about the most Dark Eldary special rule they could give them. We're talking about pirates that LIVE in the webway. Surprise deep strike should be one of their main things.

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