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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Fri Aug 19 2016, 04:52

lessthanjeff wrote:
 It won't take long for players to realize they aren't getting their points back with that expensive of a suicide unit.

People keep saying suicide unit...but marines aren't exactly a cakewalk to kill. Even against MSU, which people have indicated is a way of dealing with them, it isn't really effective.

Drop pod and vets come in, kill a venom and it's passengers. All of them.
Drop pod takes a pot shot at something else.

Next turn, another dual cannon venom and 5 warriors fire at the marines. They kill 2 on average. Meaning it will take 3 venom/kabalite combos to kill 1 unit of marines in 1 round, and that's without doing anything to the drop pod.

Equal points of pod vets vs Kabbie warriors in venoms makes the venoms lose.

And this is without giving the marine squads FnP, which I haven't looked, but I'd imagine is probably possible.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Fri Aug 19 2016, 07:18

Deathwatch does not get Apothecaries (at least at this point in time) so my assumption is that they have to rely on a librarian with Biomacy, and lucking into getting Endurance, to have Feel no Pain. The only other thing I know of that will give them feel no pain is the formation Watch Force Artemis which gives units from this formation that are within 6" of Artemis a 6+ FnP (not that anyone is ever going to use that formation competitively).

I don't have the codex and I am only going off the discussions I've read. If someone has information I don't have about it please correct me on this.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Fri Aug 19 2016, 22:26

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
lessthanjeff wrote:
 It won't take long for players to realize they aren't getting their points back with that expensive of a suicide unit.

People keep saying suicide unit...but marines aren't exactly a cakewalk to kill. Even against MSU, which people have indicated is a way of dealing with them, it isn't really effective.

Drop pod and vets come in, kill a venom and it's passengers. All of them.
Drop pod takes a pot shot at something else.

Next turn, another dual cannon venom and 5 warriors fire at the marines. They kill 2 on average. Meaning it will take 3 venom/kabalite combos to kill 1 unit of marines in 1 round, and that's without doing anything to the drop pod.

Equal points of pod vets vs Kabbie warriors in venoms makes the venoms lose.

And this is without giving the marine squads FnP, which I haven't looked, but I'd imagine is probably possible.

Except once they drop they have very little mobility and limited range as well. When I face drop pods, I put little on the table so only a couple units can get hit (and its generally just the warriors). The rest comes in and hits enemies from 36" range so they can't be hit back. Anything that was still in range, I'm usually willing to flat out to safety if I can't get out of LOS or safely count on wiping the unit. I'm expecting them to kill one unit and then I don't care if it takes me a couple turns to finish them off because I can be patient when they aren't hitting back.

4 venoms costs about the same as that unit and will sufficiently disable them (if not wipe them out which they should do on average) with a single round of shooting back. Or if you'd rather, 2 venoms with 10 warriors in rapid fire range. Their 245 point unit killed 105 points in one turn, then you can use 210 points to kill their 210 points in one turn right back. Which team do you think is winning in that trade?
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sat Aug 20 2016, 09:32

People have to remember that you don't have to completely kill the unit to be satisfied. Once that strange kill weapon is gone, I don't fear them anymore.

But before we debate anymore:
Has anybody actually played them already? Math hammer isn't that reliable...

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sat Aug 20 2016, 10:24

Quote :
But before we debate anymore:
Has anybody actually played them already? Math hammer isn't that reliable...

Not personally. But Miniwargaming made a vault video where they pitched the two armies from the box against each other. The Harlequins would have tabled the Deathwatch if the mission didn't state that the game would immediately end in a draw, should Artemis die. Dunno how relevant or representative this outcome is but it is nice to see the Clowns kick some ass after they got butchered in the fluff of the box. >: )
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sat Aug 20 2016, 16:03

CurstAlchemist wrote:
Deathwatch does not get Apothecaries (at least at this point in time) so my assumption is that they have to rely on a librarian with Biomacy, and lucking into getting Endurance, to have Feel no Pain.

Or just take the psychic powers from angels of death that lets them reroll failed saves. That's basically the same as FnP statistically. But I haven't read the deathwatch stuff yet. I'm sure I can figure out a way to get them a second save/FnP reliably.

lessthanjeff wrote:

Except once they drop they have very little mobility and limited range as well. When I face drop pods, I put little on the table so only a couple units can get hit (and its generally just the warriors).

How do you keep from getting tabled before the rest of your stuff comes on? Your plan sounds good to the uninitiated, but as they say, few plans survive first contact with the enemy. A drop pod army is capable of reaching any area of the table on turn 1, so hiding units isn't very easy, and with ignores cover S6 AP2 templates or W/E, I don't see how you expect anything DE to survive in the small numbers you're talking about. If you have no units on the table at the end of the first game turn, you automatically lose.

CptMetal wrote:

Has anybody actually played them already? Math hammer isn't that reliable...

I've always found math hammer to be incredibly reliable as a guide for what to expect. It's led me to have about a 90% win rate in my games.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sat Aug 20 2016, 20:46

hmm interesting. My question though is what is their overwatch like? From the sounds of it, if they drop pod in, whatever they point at will likely die. but do they get any buffs to overwatch? template and blast weapons can't be used for that so jumping them with close combat might be an ok plan. I hope I get to face some to see what they are like.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sat Aug 20 2016, 21:14

Ohhh.. you don't know?

My poor sweet summer child (not to sound condescending I'm just genuinely sad to have to tell you this)

Template weapons can be used in overwatch and auto deal d3 hits per flamer.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sun Aug 21 2016, 03:04

CptMetal wrote:
People have to remember that you don't have to completely kill the unit to be satisfied. Once that strange kill weapon is gone, I don't fear them anymore.

But before we debate anymore:
Has anybody actually played them already? Math hammer isn't that reliable...

As this unit is 5 guys, 4 with "strange kill weapons" you do need to completely kill the unit.

Also we know what they are capable of without playing them. It's not hard to work out.

In the hands of any half competent player these units could rip the heart out of a DE list. That fact demands consideration in your tactics and list building.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sun Aug 21 2016, 04:37

I don't advocate tailoring but in this theory crafting of what can beat the unit I'll go with dissie ravagers.

Either use them as distractions since each ravager is roughly half the cost of the unit killing it, thus protecting the heart of your army.

Or, bubble wrap them with chaff. MSU and proper positioning should ensure that the suicide unit has a short clock because mathammer dictates that every 1 dissie ravager firing at full effect (the deathwatch codex lacks long range support in any major capacity and if the suicide unit hits them see ex.1-A) will turn that squad into nothing (1 model) in a single shooting phase, at half the cost.

It's a good unit, it's going to deal damage, but it dies easier than wraithguard while hitting lighter and I don't see many lists just spamming those out either (admittedly they have easier access to deepstrike) but I feel that "it's too expensive for a suicide squad" will be the common consensus and the general prevailing belief that ap3 is everywhere coupled with the fact that nobody builds their tournament lists with intentions of facing the true kin will prevent this unit from becoming the next warp spider.

In short, to quote a semi satirical statement from the magic scene, the "it dies to doom blade so it's bad" mentality of WAAC players should make this thread much ado about nothing.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sun Aug 21 2016, 05:32

The Red King wrote:

In short, to quote a semi satirical statement from the magic scene, the  "it dies to doom blade so it's bad" mentality of WAAC players should make this thread much ado about nothing.

Mmmmmm....I doubt that, actually. The cost everyone is basing off of here assumes people pack the squad full of special weapons, which makes them pretty expensive. Now, admittedly, I don't know the exact price of the frag cannons, but since 5 marines + 4 frags & a drop pod is 245, I can assume the marines are roughly as expensive as sternguard(110), and a drop pod is probably the same as a SM drop pod(35). That leaves 100 points unaccounted for, so I assume frags are 25 points each.

If that's the case, someone could just take 1 frag cannon per squad, and still be nearly as effective against all our stuff as if each of them had 4. Let's be honest: It's only going to take 1 frag cannon to kill all the stuff in one of our transports most of the time. And then the deathwatch still get access to special issue ammunition like sternguard, so they're still able to hurt a wide variety of targets.

This puts an effective deathwatch squad with 1 frag cannon  in a drop pod at 170, which allows them to field far more than otherwise assumed at the 245 value.

Unless my assumed point values are off, which is entirely possible.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sun Aug 21 2016, 06:08

I am much much less afraid of a unit with only 1 frag cannon.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sun Aug 21 2016, 16:46

The Red King wrote:
Ohhh.. you don't know?

My poor sweet summer child (not to sound condescending I'm just genuinely sad to have to tell you this)

Template weapons can be used in overwatch and auto deal d3 hits per flamer.

! I know in the 6th edition codex that happens but could never find it in the 7th. My cunning plan has failed before it began xD guess I'll need something to eat overwatch to allow a second unit to charge or just plain shoot them to death. As a certain person in a film once said...FIRE EVERYTHING!

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sun Aug 21 2016, 19:47

The Red King wrote:
I am much much less afraid of a unit with only 1 frag cannon.

Why? It's still 2d6 S6 AP2 template shots against open-topped vehicle passengers, which will kill any 5 man unit or less, in addition to the damage against the transports. Since they're template weapons, they auto-hit, and this is in ADDITION to the special issue ammunition that the rest of the squad gets.

So they're plenty effective against vehicles and vehicle occupants with 1 cannon, while the special issue ammunition makes them effective vs pretty much all infantry and MCs.

I need to get a look at the stats and rules of these guys closer. From what I currently understand, it seems like it might be possible to take 10 squads of these guys with cannons in drop pods in an 1850 list.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sun Aug 21 2016, 21:39

The template is not AP2. Its AP - shred, the other firing modes have AP 2 and 3.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sun Aug 21 2016, 21:39

Thank you.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sun Aug 21 2016, 21:50

The sky is falling. We are doomed. Yeah. Yawn...
What about solutions instead?

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Sun Aug 21 2016, 21:52

My vote is still for dissie ravagers.

This quote is from a BoLS user and I think sums up what we can reasonably call a common train of thought. (Your meta may vary)

Frag cannons are 25 points apiece. 47 when you consider the cost of the marine attached to them.

a minimally sized all frag cannon team is 210 points, for five models. Models that die as easily as any other marine.

If you want the special rules that easily let you re roll failed wounds and armor penetration then you're looking at 50-80 points more. That's before weapon and gear upgrades.

Drop pods are drop pods.

So...295 points just to deploy four frag cannons, and 3 meat shields in a dominatus kill team that re rolls wounds against elites.

325 for an aquila or furor team.

And again that's without any upgrades beyond the 4 cannons. Add another 50-100 points if you want more survivablity and or close combat punch.

It's good, but it's just a more expensive variant on the sternguard/centurion suicide strikes from other codices.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Mon Aug 22 2016, 06:37

The Red King wrote:
My vote is still for dissie ravagers.

This quote is from a BoLS user and I think sums up what we can reasonably call a common train of thought. (Your meta may vary)

Frag cannons are 25 points apiece. 47 when you consider the cost of the marine attached to them.

a minimally sized all frag cannon team is 210 points, for five models. Models that die as easily as any other marine.

If you want the special rules that easily let you re roll failed wounds and armor penetration then you're looking at 50-80 points more. That's before weapon and gear upgrades.

Drop pods are drop pods.

So...295 points just to deploy four frag cannons, and 3 meat shields in a dominatus kill team that re rolls wounds against elites.

325 for an aquila or furor team.

And again that's without any upgrades beyond the 4 cannons. Add another 50-100 points if you want more survivablity and or close combat punch.

It's good, but it's just a more expensive variant on the sternguard/centurion suicide strikes from other codices.
If they're running a drop pod squad they're probably just going CAD and not doing the killteam formations. Maybe sticking a libby for rerolls, but that's it.
Its still expensive, but not that expensive

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Mon Aug 22 2016, 09:52

CptMetal wrote:
The sky is falling. We are doomed. Yeah. Yawn...
What about solutions instead?

We have already mentioned MSU, castling/bubble wrap, reserves, venoms and disi ravagers.
I don't think anyone is really panicking. Just maybe frustrated with the obvious power creep and constant stream of increasingly shameful muhreen porn coming from GW. Embarassed

@ Red King. I think disi ravagers could be a good choice if you could keep them safely bubble wrapped or castled in a corner behind cover.

It also depends on what the rest of the opponents list looks like. They may have the firepower to alpha strike said castle/bubble wrap and set these bad boys up for a turn 2 knock out strike.

I am thinking I don't want to bunch my units up. I may have to reserve my grotesquerie till these jerks show themselves. Maybe try a grotbomb even. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Mon Aug 22 2016, 12:51

A pure deathwatch list has little in long range anti tank and anyone brining 2 of those squads will probably consider them their mainline anti tank units.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Mon Aug 22 2016, 13:53

Painjunky wrote:
The template is not AP2. Its AP - shred, the other firing modes have AP 2 and 3.

Thanks for the clarification. I still wish I knew what all the firing modes/profiles were. Either way, sadly, this doesn't change the results too much for us, except in the case of Incubi, which no one uses anyhow. 1 cannon will still kill an entire 5 man unit by itself, on average. You just resolve the hits against the vehicle first, hoping for an explosion that deals 5 autohits to the passengers, then resolve the hits to the passengers regardless of whether the vehicle explodes or not. The hits vs. passengers does roughly 5.86 wounds before saves, so it'd kill roughly 4 if the vehicle doesn't explode.

The Red King wrote:
A pure deathwatch list has little in long range anti tank and anyone brining 2 of those squads will probably consider them their mainline anti tank units.

People keep discounting the idea of massed units of these with single frag cannons, but they're good anti-tank units, and one of the best infantry killing units in the game thanks to special issue ammunition.

They're a unit that can do it all. I expect to see them spammed with single frag cannons.

CptMetal wrote:
The sky is falling. We are doomed. Yeah. Yawn...
What about solutions instead?

Poking holes in other people's "solutions" is useful and valuable. It saves a lot of time for those who would have otherwise had to play 1-5 or even more games before they ran into the counter, and they figured out the weakness that 1 other person just KNEW the first time they looked at the matchup.

Don't assume people's tone is doom and gloom. I'm just discussing strengths and weaknesses. I wasn't being negative about the frag cannons. I'm considering using them.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Mon Aug 22 2016, 14:23

A single frag cannon is as good at anti tank as a blaster on Kabalites. Slightly better of course but only within 12 inches (which I understand that for at least one turn they will have no trouble achieving) but in later turns it remains the same, less effective than a blaster (over 12 inches) and splits the focus of the unit causing wasted shots. Not wasted against us mind you but as I said, tournament lists are not built around fighting us. The template is nice? But again, what horde of gribblies army is featuring prominently enough to make that any more than a novelty in tourney level play.

I agree this weapon is great against us. I just don't think it has the effectiveness against every army to make it spam worthy at a tournament level.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Mon Aug 22 2016, 14:36

Seshiru wrote:
The no escape rule deals D6 hits per template weapon that hits the open top vehicle, being assault 2 doesn't equate to 2D6 hits. And GW has had ample opportunity to clarify if they meant otherwise.

I thought I'd seen something in one of the FAQ's that addressed this point but it actually relates to overwatch. That clarified that you get d3 Wall of Death hits for each shot, not for each weapon. And the wall of death rule is actually far more restrictive than the no escape rule, so I'd certainly lean towards d6 no escape hits for each shot rather than each weapon. Doesn't do us any favours but I suspect it's what is meant to happen and there's nothing to suggest that it shouldn't work that way.


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PostSubject: Re: DE vs Deathwatch   Mon Aug 22 2016, 14:41

I agree with you count. Though I thought the FAQ was the other way (per weapon) but I could be remembering incorrectly.

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