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Rusty293
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PostSubject: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Sun Aug 14 2016, 10:44

I've been thinking of theming a list around the Eldar Swordwind, using the Dark Eldar codex and the units therein. As you know the concept of the swordwind is each of the Aspect shrines working in concert to become more than the sum of their parts, and I like the thought of perhaps an Archon seeing this in action and thinking of trying to do it better with the forces at their disposal. Now we don't technically have 'aspect' warriors however those units we do have are made to be specialists rather than all rounders so the effect would be the same. In terms of how I see the units:

Kabalite Warriors = Dire Avengers
Wyches = Howling Banshees?
Mandrakes = Scorpions?
Incubi = are only true aspect warriors
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Sun Aug 14 2016, 10:53

None of our listed units are equivalent to the Eldar ones. Except maybe the Warriors and the Incubbi.
Maybe Reavers as scorpions?
But technically, that concept of working together is what separates a good commander from a great one.
How do you want to achieve this?

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Rusty293
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Sun Aug 14 2016, 11:09

Oh I agree our units can't compare to the eldar offering currently. I pressed send on my last post a little too early, I guess I was looking to prompt a discussion as to which of our units might fall under what category in the Eldar Sword Wind. So I should have added:
Scourges = firedragons
Reavers = shining spears (although I hadn't considered thinking of the as scorpions, good idea!)
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Sun Aug 14 2016, 11:21

Shining Spears are way too good in Armour piercing to compare them to Reavers. So they are more likely like scorpions.
Scourges as fire dragons. Okay. Sort of.
Incubbi are sort of banshees.
Witches are mostly useless.
Mandrake.... Um... I have no idea. Some sort of short range path Finders?

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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Mon Aug 15 2016, 14:54

The Dark Eldar codex at it's heart embodies the concept of the Swordwind anyway. Units are heavilty specialised and have certain roles in which they excel, but you need to use many of them to achieve victory. The death by a thousand cuts philosophy relies on the Swordwind mentality to work well.

As for Aspects, Incubi are clearly a Dark Eldar Aspect Temple. They're highly specialised and highly effective warrior-monks, with their own shrines and ritual practices to go along with that. Beyond that there's no other DE unit that can be called an Aspect. Mandrakes are warp (or webway) twisted creatures, Scourges (whilst comparable to Swooping Hawks) are mercenaries and more like a gang than a temple, Reavers are just Wyches, Hellions are street punks and Haemonculai are an entirely different beast.

In terms of capability, Bloodbrides should be on a par with Aspect Warriors (but they're not). They should be somewhat equivalent to Banshee's but they're not good enough to compete with them. Scourges are strong enough to function in place of Aspects but could do with some more versatility to really achieve that (Swooping Hawks out-manoeuvre them significantly). Incubi should in theory be extremely effective (possibly even more effective in combat than both Banshee's and Scorpions) but that Aspect formation Eldar get kind of squashes that notion.

The Dark Eldar just don't have the same Warrior Code that Eldar possess, they're not as good martially as the Craftworlders. They instead rely on using surprise and sacrificial units to achieve their goals. Arguably the basic Kabalite Warrior deployed in numbers is as effective as a Swordwind force when you consider the DE use of surprise, night-fighting and cunning. Why train super=soldiers when you can grow hundreds of pawns in vats and send them to punch the enemy in the balls to cripple them!

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Mon Aug 15 2016, 21:55

@Demantiae wrote:
The Dark Eldar just don't have the same Warrior Code that Eldar possess, they're not as good martially as the Craftworlders. They instead rely on using surprise and sacrificial units to achieve their goals. Arguably the basic Kabalite Warrior deployed in numbers is as effective as a Swordwind force when you consider the DE use of surprise, night-fighting and cunning. Why train super=soldiers when you can grow hundreds of pawns in vats and send them to punch the enemy in the balls to cripple them!

Now that just annoys the hell out of me!

On page 8 of my codex it states that while dark eldar are psychicly weak they are far MORE martially oriented and physically superior to craftworlders and thats BEFORE becoming superman when high on pain. Mad Evil or Very Mad

But we all know fluff means nothing especially on the table. Rolling Eyes
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Wed Aug 17 2016, 13:22

You misunderstood what I was saying. They may be better fighters on average sure. They may be meaner. They may be tougher. But they're not as disciplined, nor as organized as a true martial species. There's a difference between a great fighter and a great soldier. Sure the Archons use their cunning and tactical acumen to set up distractions, envelopements and concentration of force but the individual warriors are just a rabble of desperate fighters trying to survive and make a name for themselves. You can't operate a top-tier military force when it's composed of thousands of individual Rambo's! The Craftworlders are forced by circumstance to be ultra disciplined and organised. Their military doctrines would be significantly more detailed and potent than any Dark Eldar strategy.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Wed Aug 17 2016, 15:46

I disagree with you Demantiae (although have no sources to quote). I would say that the basic Warrior is very good at military coordination (at a squad level anyway). With all the plotting and backstabbing in the Dark City, each and every Warrior needs to constantly be on their toes and watching their backs. Each warrior is "very loyal" to their Kabal, because if the Kabal fails, then they are out on the street (and probably some Haemonculus's table). This would lead to a very militaristic and well coordinated machine.

Compare that to the CW guardian who is just a potter or musician or w/e...
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Thu Aug 18 2016, 10:04

@Demantiae wrote:
You misunderstood what I was saying. They may be better fighters on average sure. They may be meaner. They may be tougher. But they're not as disciplined, nor as organized as a true martial species. There's a difference between a great fighter and a great soldier. Sure the Archons use their cunning and tactical acumen to set up distractions, envelopements and concentration of force but the individual warriors are just a rabble of desperate fighters trying to survive and make a name for themselves. You can't operate a top-tier military force when it's composed of thousands of individual Rambo's! The Craftworlders are forced by circumstance to be ultra disciplined and organised. Their military doctrines would be significantly more detailed and potent than any Dark Eldar strategy.

I get what your saying, its just not what my dex says.

Page 9...
"The strike forces of the dark elder, despite consisting of treacherous and scheming murderers, work like a well tuned machines upon the battlefield. Raids are planned in meticulous detail by the Archons and Succubi that lead them...Dark Eldar warriors are such determined opponents and why their bitter rivalries are set aside during battle. Working in concert ensures the greatest amount of punishment is inflicted and maximum number of captives..."

That does not sound like a rabble of desperate warriors trying to survive to me. Quite the opposite.

DE are on average better warriors, more martial culture and vastly more experienced in warfare than craftworlders. In battle they work in concert like well oiled machines executing meticulously orchestrated tactics.

Of course none of this matters as GWs fluff nerds cannot have any contact with nor come within 150m of GWs rules nerds.  Rolling Eyes

What they SHOULD have done is make DE superior in the killing/battle tactics department but Eldar have access to awesome psychics, superior tech, wraithbone constructs and aspects warriors that are almost as killy but not as numerous as DE.

Instead they just decided to give everything to Eldar. Idiots.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Thu Aug 18 2016, 10:31

@Painjunky wrote:
What they SHOULD have done is make DE superior in the killing/battle tactics department but Eldar have access to awesome psychics, superior tech, wraithbone constructs and aspects warriors that are almost as killy but not as numerous as DE.

Instead they just decided to give everything to Eldar. Idiots.

Craftworld's absolutely should not have superior tech to the Dark Eldar. They rely heavily on their psychic powers to create even mundane items, along with most of their weaponry and materiel. DE on the other hand, rely purely on technology. Dark Eldar should absolutely have superior tech to the Craftworlds.

Kabalite Warriors probably have the right stats but Eldar Guardians need to revert to their pre-6e version with WS and BS of 3, although I4 was probably a little low. They are not warriors, according to their own bloody codex:

Quote :
Guardians are the civilians of the craftworlds, who take up arms as assault teams, pilots and artillerymen

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Thu Aug 18 2016, 11:04

But Craftworld Eldar with BS and WS 3? Outrageous!

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Thu Aug 18 2016, 11:29

Would help to tone their codex down a little though. And it really needs toning down!

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Thu Aug 18 2016, 11:36

Sarcasm doesn't translate well via text.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Thu Aug 18 2016, 12:03

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Craftworld's absolutely should not have superior tech to the Dark Eldar. They rely heavily on their psychic powers to create even mundane items, along with most of their weaponry and materiel. DE on the other hand, rely purely on technology. Dark Eldar should absolutely have superior tech to the Craftworlds.

Was that the only point that I made that you disagree with? If so great!

My reasoning was that eldar have access to the spectacular semi-sentient building material known as wraithbone.
Also as they have a FAR less martial culture they have a wealth of master artisans that have the spare time to perfect their creations, In DE culture this would rarely be possibile.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Thu Aug 18 2016, 12:11

@Painjunky wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Craftworld's absolutely should not have superior tech to the Dark Eldar. They rely heavily on their psychic powers to create even mundane items, along with most of their weaponry and materiel. DE on the other hand, rely purely on technology. Dark Eldar should absolutely have superior tech to the Craftworlds.

Was that the only point that I made that you disagree with? If so great!

Yeah, the rest was pretty spot on.

Quote :
My reasoning was that eldar have access to the spectacular semi-sentient building material known as wraithbone.

You also listed Wraithbone constructs as a separate item though so I didn't really include it as 'tech'.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Thu Aug 18 2016, 12:34

I'm with you now. Its late here. Smile
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Swordwind   Fri Aug 19 2016, 22:13

They should both have similar awesome technology. Just different.

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