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lelith
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Wed Aug 24 2016, 09:32

Thank you so much, troupe master! I'm really looking forward to having the first game with fully painted harles Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Fri Aug 26 2016, 05:36

Using the Solitaire blitz on landraiders is awesome. Not sure if there was a misconception there or not.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Fri Aug 26 2016, 09:19

The misconception about the solitaire is that he is good - sadly.

Even on a blitz and throwing a haywire grenade, the odds of wrecking a land raider are woefully low...

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Ixonoxlast
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Fri Aug 26 2016, 11:46

Ive had better luck with him, than dark lances

Edit:
Also he costs less than a trouple, master + 4 w/ caress, 1 w/o and has a bunch of special abilities, 3++, 12" move, etc

+++ New Roster (295pts) +++

++ Harlequins - Codex (Combined Arms Detachment) (295pts) ++

+ Elites (145pts) +

Solitaire (145pts) [Harlequin's Kiss]

+ Troops (150pts) +

Troupe (150pts)
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
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lelith
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Sat Aug 27 2016, 14:27

I got a small rule question regarding this thread.

If both shadowseer and death jester make the same enemy unit fail the pinning/morale tests, then what happens?

1. Should the opponent make the Ld role twice?

2. If so, in which order? Pinning and morale? Or vice versa?

3. If the unit got pinned AND failed in morale check, will they go to ground or flee?


Also, is Inriam's Spectre a unique character (fluffwise restricted as only one model per army)?

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Sat Aug 27 2016, 17:04

The way I play it with my friends is, roll for all pinning tests until one is failed or all pinning tests have been passed. Once those are resolved we roll for morale, I tend to roll the Death Jester's first, if the test for the Death Jester's attack is failed then move the enemy unit in what ever direction the Death Jester's player wises as per his rules, if the enemy unit passes then we roll for additional tests and they act in accordance to the rules for those tests.

As per the going to ground section of the rules, units that go to ground take morale checks as normal and immediately fall back if they fail a morale check. Going to ground only prevents the unit from voluntarily moving not from fleeing.

Inriam's Spectre is indeed Unique so only one per army.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Mon Aug 29 2016, 19:30

I believe you roll for pinning immediately, where you roll for morale at the end of the phase. So, a unit would be able to suffer from multiple pinning tests, but only one morale test.

From BRB

Pinning

Coming under fire without knowing where the shots are coming from, or having ordnance rain down from the skies, can shake the resolve of even the bravest warriors, making them dive flat and cling to whatever cover presents itself.

If a non-vehicle unit suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon with the Pinning special rule, it must take a Leadership test once the firing unit has finished its shooting attacks for that phase. This is called a Pinning test.

If the unit fails the test, it is Pinned and must immediately Go to Ground. As the unit has already taken its saves, Going to Ground does not protect it against the fire of the Pinning weapon that caused the test – it’s too late!

As long as the test is passed, a unit can be called upon to take multiple Pinning tests in a single turn, but only once for each unit shooting at them. If a unit has already Gone to Ground, no further Pinning tests are taken.

If the special rules of a unit specify that the unit can never be Pinned, the unit automatically passes Pinning tests. Such units can still Go to Ground voluntarily if they wish

Morale
The most common reasons a unit must take a Morale check are as follows:

• Casualties: A unit losing 25% or more of its current models during a single phase must take a Morale check at the end of that phase. There is an exception: units that lose 25% or more of their current models in the Assault phase do not take a Morale check.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Mon Aug 29 2016, 21:51

Ah yes, you are correct and I should have been more clear when I was writing. When a unit makes an attack with pinning the unit hit should roll his pinning test after the to hit rolls from that unit have been finished, so it would be wounds immediately followed by the pinning test with all morale tests being done at the end of the phase. If the unit goes to ground any unit firing at the now pinned unit would be have to deal with the cover save created by the unit having gone to ground. This is why it is important to pick when you use an ability that has pinning. At the end of the phase the Morale tests happen, if one of the Morale tests was caused by the Death Jester, I resolve that one first.

Thanks for pointing out the problems with my post.


Last edited by CurstAlchemist on Mon Aug 29 2016, 22:50; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : rephrased for further clarity.)
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Mon Aug 29 2016, 21:53

I hope it didn't come off as corrective. Not my intention. I just wanted to ensure it was clear for the OP.

Definitely didn't want my first post to seem snarky!! Many apologies!
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Mon Aug 29 2016, 21:54

No problem I would rather you point out the problems with the post so that it was made clear then for it to create further misunderstanding. I did do a poor job of fully conveying what I was attempting to say, I did screw up with my memory of the rules obviously as I had all pinning tests being done at the end of the phase with the Morale checks.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Tue Aug 30 2016, 05:35

Pinning is indeed once a unit has completed its shooting while morale is end of phase.

@Ixonoxlast wrote:
Ive had better luck with him, than dark lances

Edit:
Also he costs less than a trouple, master + 4 w/ caress, 1 w/o and has a bunch of special abilities, 3++, 12" move, etc

+++ New Roster (295pts) +++

++ Harlequins - Codex (Combined Arms Detachment) (295pts) ++

+ Elites (145pts) +

Solitaire (145pts) [Harlequin's Kiss]

+ Troops (150pts) +

Troupe (150pts)
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]

I think you shot yourself in the foot with this comparison - the troupe as more wounds (7 vs 3) and even with the 3++ vs 5++ the troupe is still more durable and more effective.

On a blitz - the solitaire might have an edge due to reach but in terms of attacks - especially since both units don't give 2 hoots about comparative WS and are just fishing for 6's - the troupe wins every day of the week - 21 caress attacks vs 11 is simply a loss to the solitaire.

He has his uses but is woefully over priced (100 points max is what he should be) and unreliable (if he could get the storied sword.... that would rock!).

Like most 'super characters' anything they can do, the unit they are based on will do it better for the same points. Incubi vs Drazhar, Karandras vs Scorpions... hell, 2 farseers vs Eldrad. Almost universally the heroes are worse on a points vs effect compared to the units they come from.

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lelith
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Tue Aug 30 2016, 06:35

@Massaen wrote:

Like most 'super characters' anything they can do, the unit they are based on will do it better for the same points. Incubi vs Drazhar, Karandras vs Scorpions... hell, 2 farseers vs Eldrad. Almost universally the heroes are worse on a points vs effect compared to the units they come from.

2 farseers with the jetbikes vs Eldrad on foot? K.O.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Tue Sep 06 2016, 16:02

Well Gents,

After spending my night off reading these threads and your tatics/lists (which I find awesome so thank you very much) I just dropped another $250 upgrading both my DE and Harlequin armies. Keep up the good work!
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Fri Sep 23 2016, 04:32

@Massaen wrote:
A full revenge at 1500 has seen the most success for me

3x lvl2 seers (one with mask) and one as the warlord
3x DJ
1 Solitaire

3x8 troupes

2x2 sky weavers with glaives and haywire

void weaver with prism

The troupes I have been using have 2x caress (troupe leader plus one other) then 5 kiss and one naked for ablative wound. I hand out haywire to the troupe first, then the seers, then the solitaire, then the Dj if I have points.

Scaling up I think I would need to lose the revenge for a double masque


I tried this list yesterday, which worked very well!

VoT made my three troupes immune to the chaosfire till their intergrated charge in T3, which literally obliterated Kharn, the berzerkers, dark apostle, and another unit of marines. 4 HW cannons easily wrecked a land raider too.






Still, I don't know how to defend my troupes against the alpha-striking army, like a marine squad with several flamers in a drop pod Sad I've ordered a VSG for this purpose, but not sure whether this would work well or not.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Fri Sep 23 2016, 08:30

Scaling up i'd add eldar seer council. Harlies get great leverage from psychic powers.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Fri Sep 23 2016, 19:48

@Massaen wrote:

He has his uses but is woefully over priced (100 points max is what he should be) and unreliable (if he could get the storied sword.... that would rock!).

I haven't run the numbers, but if using the new FAQs, the Solitaire is MUCH better than previously thought, since he gets to use all 3 weapons at once. Meaning he can blitz, get D3 S6 hammer of wrath hits, get 1 S6 kiss of death attack, and get 11 rending attacks.(10 base attacks, +1 for 2 weapons, +1 for charging)

In the FAQs, they ruled that weapons which use the term "bearer" or otherwise indicate they only need be in your possession don't need to be the selected weapon to confer the benefit that is described in association with possession.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Sun Sep 25 2016, 14:00

I agree with you that Solitaire now gets both advantages of caress and kiss attacks, but he doesn't have the embrace.

Though I've used him in such a way, he's still too expensive for what he can do for me. From my experiences, he's always been removed as a casualy as soon as an opponent aims at him.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Sun Sep 25 2016, 17:47

@lelith wrote:
I agree with you that Solitaire now gets both advantages of caress and kiss attacks, but he  doesn't have the embrace.

Though I've used him in such a way, he's still too expensive for what he can do for me. From my experiences, he's always been removed as a casualy as soon as an opponent aims at him.

Uh, he DOES get the embrace, because that's the weapon you choose to use in the combat. The other 2 weapon's effects, you get without choosing them, so logic dictates that you choose the weapon that you don't get it's effects automatically. See what I'm saying now? Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Sun Sep 25 2016, 17:49

No. Care to elaborate?

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Sun Sep 25 2016, 18:05

@Azdrubael wrote:
No. Care to elaborate?

I feel like I'm being Trolled, but fine...

Basic rules say you must choose 1 weapon to strike with in combat. Previously, many TO's ruled that this meant even weapons that had "bearer" rules didn't work unless that was the weapon you were striking with.

Due to the new FAQs, any weapon or item effects that use the words "Bearer" or otherwise indicate that possession is enough to trigger their effects DO work regardless of whether or not you choose them as your active weapon during combat.

Harlequin's Kiss weapons have a "bearer" rule that says it makes 1 of your attacks automatically S6 AP2. That attack further gets the instant death rule if you roll a 6 to wound.

Harlequin's Carress weapons have a "bearer" rule that says it gives the "bearer" hammer of wrath that is resolved at S6 with d3 hits instead of normal rules for resolution.

The Harlequin's Embrace has no bearer rule, but makes your attacks rending if you choose to use it in combat.


So if you choose to use the Embrace, you get it's effects, and you get the carress and kiss effects automatically, without choosing to use them in combat. So that's all 3 weapons in effect.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Sun Sep 25 2016, 18:59

Hi,
I just reread solitaire entry in the harlee codex (french version) and no embrass.
This is sad, It would have been a nice bonus.
PS : I think you mixed Embrass and Caress in your previous post
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Sun Sep 25 2016, 20:24

Quote :
The Harlequin's Embrace has no bearer rule, but makes your attacks rending if you choose to use it in combat.

But Solitaire doesnt have Embrace, nor does he have the option to take one. Only Kiss and Caress.
And, Embrace doesnt give Rending at all. Only D3 S6 Hammer of Wrath hit.

Solitaire only have pseudo-old-rending from Caress on to 6s to hit.

Hence the original question.

What Soitaire has is Caress Atacks + one Kiss Atack. You can take Rose and exchange caress atacks for shred normal atacks ( you can chose which special weapons to use) + one kiss atack. Thats pretty much all he has.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Sun Sep 25 2016, 22:36

My mistake, I mixed up the Embrace and Caress, and thought he had all 3. I was almost certain he had all 3. Makes me wonder if there was an alternate writeup somewhere like a white dwarf or something. Maybe just internal wishlisting, haha. Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Sun Sep 25 2016, 23:24

The Solitaire still performed pretty well in my games. The trick is to keep him hidden and use him to mop up units. All those Caress attacks are quite strong. He doesn't even have to kill all dudes. Most of my combats with him I won because my enemy ran away. His Ini 10 makes it almost impossible to escape.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin Misconceptions   Sun Sep 25 2016, 23:48

That's how I run him too. I keep him hidden till T2-3 using BLOS, and then make him charge into a proper target.

I'm not arguing that Solitaire is weak in close combat. The problem that I usually experience is, he's too strong to tie the target unit. Like @Causalis said, he instead destroys the unit or makes it retreat. In the end, my Solitaire is killed by the enemy's retaliation fire before earning back his points.

Till now my biggest success with Solitaire was against the smurfs. ATSKNF (ironically) helped him to survive from the retaliation fire, and then hit&run to the next target.
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