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 A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 14:48

So, a guy posted this on a private 40k list I'm on(along with 25,000 other people), regarding the death masque fluff. I haven't specifically read the fluff, but if it's true that it's written from the space marine/imperial perspective, then what he's saying makes sense.  

A dude named Ross wrote:
You can't empty the infinity circuit, they're infinite, he only drained the parts that are in real space. Also you can't kill something that's already dead. Eldrad may have only released one Avatar of Ynnead, but that's all it takes. Also World Spirits can not be used to power Ynnead as they're linked to a completely different Eldar God(dess) so they're almost completely unaffected. And whilst Slannesh is going to get it in the neck, Nurgles about to have a real bad day. (The power that was taken from the World Spirits is so that Ynead can go get her Sister.) Death Watch saw little more than Eldraad wanted them to see and their involvement was planned.

Plus the resultant explosion of the Moon has just drowned out the Astronomican and the Imperium are screwed. Eldraad completely played the Death Watch although it may have cost him his life. (Along with over one hundred thousand other Eldar who sacrificed them selves in a distraction battle against the Imperium at a nearby ship yard.) Ulthwe and Sam-Hain are the craftworlds most effected by this. Both where chosen because of their never say die attitude, both are expected to recover. The fluff is written from the Imperiums point of view, they dont get that the eldar who died in these battles are part of the initial sacrifice being used to empower Ynnead. And the Dark Eldar dont know that Ynnead is in the Webway and stalking them for food.

If this guy's speculation is accurate, that is pretty profound, and sounds MUCH more like the Eldrad we know and love. Wink
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 16:18

That would be pretty dope!

But I have a few questions:

-Why is Slannesh going to "get it in the neck"? A mere avatar/splinter of Ynnead isn't going to do jack against a full god.

-Where does the power of the World Spirits come in? All that is said is, that Eldrad uses the souls from the Infinity Circuits to power the ritual. He never taps into the World Spirit.

-The involvement of the Deathwatch was not planned. Otherwise we would now have to assume that the narrator is lying (we are explicitly told that Eldrad foresaw the Deathwatch interfering but dismissed that possible future - so no, he didn't account for their interference).

-Why is Ynnead suddenly in the webway? That would pre-require that he has awoken or isn't slumbering anymore. But with the failed ritual Ynnead is still non-existant.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 17:09

@Causalis wrote:
That would be pretty dope!

But I have a few questions:

-Why is Slannesh going to "get it in the neck"? A mere avatar/splinter of Ynnead isn't going to do jack against a full god.


I think this is just speculation based on slaanesh being killed off in AoS, and their interpretation of what's currently happening. Understand that an avatar of Ynnead can grow in power by feeding on the souls of the dead/dying, just like slaanesh fed and grew from rampant eldar excess.

@Causalis wrote:
-Where does the power of the World Spirits come in? All that is said is, that Eldrad uses the souls from the Infinity Circuits to power the ritual. He never taps into the World Spirit.

-The involvement of the Deathwatch was not planned. Otherwise we would now have to assume that the narrator is lying (we are explicitly told that Eldrad foresaw the Deathwatch interfering but dismissed that possible future - so no, he didn't account for their interference).

As I said, I haven't personally read the death masque fluff, but multiple people on that list have mentioned world spirits, so maybe there is some sort of cryptic reference to it.

@Causalis wrote:
-Why is Ynnead suddenly in the webway? That would pre-require that he has awoken or isn't slumbering anymore. But with the failed ritual Ynnead is still non-existant.

Ynnead isn't non-existant. An avatar of Ynnead was basically raised. What Ross was saying was referring to this part, where what is cryptically described could actually be the completion of the Ynnead ritual by the hundred thousand eldar deaths and other deaths that occurred in this star system due to the battle and the moon exploding, since the whole objective was to empower Ynnead through eldar souls.

Death Masque wrote:
The emergent consciousness of the gold splintered, its full apotheosis denied.

The crystal seers shattered with terrific force even as the Space Marines sprinted for their assault craft. Eldrad reeled, stumbling blindly through the webway gate behind him as the planet ignited with white fire.

The last thing he saw was a vast and solemn constellation losing cohesion, a bright single point form within it shooting away into the far reaches of the cosmos.

So they're speculating that the additional deaths of the shattering spiritstones, paired with the explosion of the moon, and the "constellation losing cohesion" completed the necessary empowerment to the Avatar of Ynnead, who was the "bright single point" which formed and shot away into the cosmos.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 17:35

Finally got my box this morning and read the fluff so I can actually analyze what's written instead of just secondhand accounts.

There seems to be a whole bunch of worrying over not very much.

It seems clear that Ynnead did indeed wake up, but only at a fraction of his power. That's still enough to be a threat to Slaanesh, though, and there's always time for his power to grow.

Artemis's behavior seems perfectly in character with Space Marines in general and Deathwatch in specific.

It seemed pretty clear that the ritual was only going to borrow the Eldar souls, not consume them entirely. Although the premature ending seems like it may have destroyed a portion of them, the most reasonable interpretation seems to be that the Eldar souls in the Infinity Circuits would have snapped back when the crystal seers were destroyed.

The involvement of the Deathwatch was absolutely planned on. The only portion of their involvement that Eldrad dismissed was a possible future where they used a time-manipulating weapon in order to disrupt his plans (not something that the Imperium is known for using, so not an unreasonable decision on his part).

The story seems to be the typical, "both sides claim a Phyrric victory" ending we get from virtually every campaign.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 17:37

To me it seems this "Ross" is taking a lot of liberties with his own narrative given what we know from the fluff. In addition to what Causalis voiced already, why is Ynnead hunting down Dark Eldar specifically?

This "Ross" seems to be ignoring this little part, even if the majority of the story is told in Space Marine perspective this part would not have been known by them and is obviously in Eldrad's perspective:
Spoiler:
 
If "Ross" is correct and the ritual actually succeeded then the climax was still reached and the Craftworlds, and Eldar Fleets are still screwed over for a time. Only if we can infer that the ritual failed before Climax would this line here have no relevance. If the argument is that it is completely from the Space Marines then what relevance does that line have in the narrative at all about the repercussions on the Eldar?

In my reading of it, he failed to manefest Ynnead fully because of being forced to divert his focus, but it sounds to me that the ritual still hit the climax when
Spoiler:
 
and it was only do to Eldrad being forced to divert his attention that made the ritual fail as he and the crystal farseers were all needed to be completely focused on that one moment were to end the climax in Eldrad's desired fashion.


Last edited by CurstAlchemist on Wed Aug 24 2016, 20:07; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : For better phrasing.)
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 17:53

As has been previously discussed, direct disobedience by Artemis is out of character ESPECIALLY in the deathwatch.

Eldrad has been alive and watching reality unfold since before the heresy. Certainly he would be aware that the imperium had access to that tech whether they were known for it or not.

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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 17:57

Quote :
The only portion of their involvement that Eldrad dismissed was a possible future where they used a time-manipulating weapon in order to disrupt his plans (not something that the Imperium is known for using, so not an unreasonable decision on his part).

This was a watershed moment and when that device activated it swung things from one of the desired futures to a less desired one. At the moment that bomb went off his defenses were lost and it opened him to attack, this resulted in him failing to manifest his desired future do to having to divert his attention from the ritual when it was most needed do to the loss of the Death Jester who seemed to be a focus for the Laughing God's Blessings. This was not planned for.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 18:40

@CurstAlchemist wrote:

In my reading of it, he failed to manefest Ynnead fully because of being forced to divert his focus, but it sounds to me that the ritual still hit the climax when
Spoiler:
 
and it was only do to Eldrad being forced to divert his attention that made the ritual fail as he and the crystal farseers were all needed at that one moment were needed to end the climax in a desired fashion.

That sounds like a reasonable conclusion to me. Between the two interpretations, what was written in the fluff definitely seems to fit with the description of the prophecy that the climax of the ritual was reached and Ynnead awakened.

As for perspective, everything I've seen so far leads me to believe that the narration was third person, rather than from a specific person or faction's perspective, but again, I haven't read it all. It's been awhile since I've brushed up on literary concepts, but I believe there is one where, despite 3rd person narration, the narrater's knowledge isn't perfect. Perhaps 3rd person imperfect is what it's called?
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 18:45

I'd really like to believe what you're saying betray but it just feels a lot like the "reaper indoctrination" theory for mass effect 3. Where people ascribed much more depth and forethought to cover the amazingly lazy writing by EA in a desperate bid to mentally save their beloved franchise.

All that said, maybe GW will see it and go "oh wow that's so much better than what we meant... yeah! We meant that all along!"

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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 19:31

See Causalis' post below, makes much more sense then what I tried to say.


Last edited by CurstAlchemist on Thu Aug 25 2016, 04:07; edited 1 time in total
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 21:53

Finally some knowledge I can use from our literary courses:

The narrator is a limited omniscient narrator with his position inside of the narrative (there is also the variant of an 3rd person narrator outside of the immediate narrative but that is rather specific). The narrator has a clear focus on the Imperium but occasionally he broadens his view to include the point of view of the Eldar. It could be a 3rd person narrator but scientifically speaking a 3rd person narrator doesn't have insight into a characters mind or thoughtprocess. But since the narrator tells us how Eldrad is telepathically contacting Artemis (something unnoticable from the outside) it has to be the omniscient narrator. He is limited because he adapts the role of the 3rd person narrator. /rant

Quote :
Artemis's behavior seems perfectly in character with Space Marines in general and Deathwatch in specific.

Could you elaborate this? How is this even remotely in character for an organisation of such prestige, such as the Deathwatch? I'm betting no Imperial Guardsman would ever say something like that to his Commissar.

Quote :
The story seems to be the typical, "both sides claim a Phyrric victory" ending we get from virtually every campaign.

To me it seemed like 90% of the casualties were on the Harlequin side. To the Deathwatch it was a pretty clear victory since the only survivor was Eldrad, whilst the Deathwatch had Artemis, the Dreadnaught and an undescribed number of Marines left. Seems very one-sided to me.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 22:04

@Causalis wrote:
Finally some knowledge I can use from our literary courses:

The narrator is a limited omniscient narrator with his position inside of the narrative (there is also the variant of an 3rd person narrator outside of the immediate narrative but that is rather specific). The narrator has a clear focus on the Imperium but occasionally he broadens his view to include the point of view of the Eldar. It could be a 3rd person narrator but scientifically speaking a 3rd person narrator doesn't have insight into a characters mind or thoughtprocess. But since the narrator tells us how Eldrad is telepathically contacting Artemis (something unnoticable from the outside) it has to be the omniscient narrator. He is limited because he adapts the role of the 3rd person narrator. /rant

Thanks for clearing that up.

@Causalis wrote:
To me it seemed like 90% of the casualties were on the Harlequin side. To the Deathwatch it was a pretty clear victory since the only survivor was Eldrad, whilst the Deathwatch had Artemis, the Dreadnaught and an undescribed number of Marines left. Seems very one-sided to me.

I counted 3 stated Deathwatch deaths, so 25% Fatalities, they mention several maimed without a count but of course they fight on despite comments of missing body parts, so the maimings increase the casualties (who are later ignored in the narrative as they aren't mentioned as having a problem getting to the Corvus at the end). Also it is mentioned that they are pretty much uneffected by the damage as they returned fire and were not out of the battle.

Spoiler:
 

So we have a ~94% fatality rate on the Eldar, ~65% fatality rate on all of the combatants, of the fatalities we are looking at ~15% of all fatalities being Space marines and ~85% being Harlequins. Casualties are a little harder as we don't know how many of the Space Marines were hurt bad enough to be counted as Casualties at the end of the fighting.

I still do not understand how a weapon with no ammunition feed can continue to fire after it discharges the one that I assume was already primed within the weapon at the time of the feed being cut. I believe it is mentioned that plasma is fired 3 times after the feed is cut and no mention of anyone reattaching it.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 25 2016, 09:17

Quote :
I still do not understand how a weapon with no ammunition feed can continue to fire after it discharges the one that I assume was already primed within the weapon at the time of the feed being cut. I believe it is mentioned that plasma is fired 3 times after the feed is cut and no mention of anyone reattaching it.

Because the Dreadnaught has "experience in fighting the Eldar". If I had to interpret this I would assume that the Dreadnaught has had his weapon modified. Something like this:

Nihilus: "Tech Priest, attend me!"

Tech Priest: "Is there a problem?"

N: "I've had it to here *raises right Plasma-Gun-Arm* with those Eldar Xenos and their mischief! They are always so elusive and instead of facing me directly they fight like a pack of wolves, bleeding their enemy until he is weak enough that they can go in for the kill!"

TP: *looks at the nine tons of concentrated r*pe that is Nihilus* *mutters* "Yeah, I wonder why they never charge directly into you..."

N: "What was that?"

TP: "Nothing. Now, how can I be of service?"

N: "Put an extra ammo dispenser on my Plasma Gun. I feel like the Xenos will try to disARM me."

TP: *stares at Nihilus' right Plasma-Gun-Arm, whilst his cogitator desperately tries to calculate if Nihilus just made a horrible pun* "...Right away. Let me just get those holy oils." *starts singing in binary*

N: *sighs and waits for the Tech Priest to finish his hour long preparations to begin the customization that would otherwise have only taken 15 minutes*
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 25 2016, 10:22

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
So, a guy posted this on a private 40k list I'm on(along with 25,000 other people), regarding the death masque fluff. I haven't specifically read the fluff, but if it's true that it's written from the space marine/imperial perspective, then what he's saying makes sense.  

A dude named Ross wrote:
You can't empty the infinity circuit, they're infinite, he only drained the parts that are in real space. Also you can't kill something that's already dead. Eldrad may have only released one Avatar of Ynnead, but that's all it takes. Also World Spirits can not be used to power Ynnead as they're linked to a completely different Eldar God(dess) so they're almost completely unaffected. And whilst Slannesh is going to get it in the neck, Nurgles about to have a real bad day. (The power that was taken from the World Spirits is so that Ynead can go get her Sister.) Death Watch saw little more than Eldraad wanted them to see and their involvement was planned.

Plus the resultant explosion of the Moon has just drowned out the Astronomican and the Imperium are screwed. Eldraad completely played the Death Watch although it may have cost him his life. (Along with over one hundred thousand other Eldar who sacrificed them selves in a distraction battle against the Imperium at a nearby ship yard.) Ulthwe and Sam-Hain are the craftworlds most effected by this. Both where chosen because of their never say die attitude, both are expected to recover. The fluff is written from the Imperiums point of view, they dont get that the eldar who died in these battles are part of the initial sacrifice being used to empower Ynnead. And the Dark Eldar dont know that Ynnead is in the Webway and stalking them for food.

If this guy's speculation is accurate, that is pretty profound, and sounds MUCH more like the Eldrad we know and love. Wink


Got to argue against many of those points:

"You can't empty the infinity circuit, they're infinite, he only drained the parts that are in real space."
Infinity Circuit is just a name, not an indication that it actually is Infinite.

"Also you can't kill something that's already dead."
There's no indication that whatever was in the moon, or was released, was ever dead. Being a God of The Dead doesn't necessarily mean being dead. To use the Egyptian Gods as an example, Anubis was God Of The Dead, but wasn't dead himself.
To use Monty Python as a reference, it seems to me that Ynnead wasn't dead, he was merely resting. Pining for the fjords of the old Empire, and all that.

"Also World Spirits can not be used to power Ynnead as they're linked to a completely different Eldar God(dess) so they're almost completely unaffected."
It could easily be argued that all Eldar are connected to all of their gods.

"Death Watch saw little more than Eldraad wanted them to see and their involvement was planned."
THAT was not apparent from the stories in the book. WHere is this extra information coming from? Speculation?

"Plus the resultant explosion of the Moon has just drowned out the Astronomican and the Imperium are screwed."
The moon shoen brighter than the Astronomicon TEMPORARILY.

"Eldraad completely played the Death Watch although it may have cost him his life."
Not born out by the book. In fact nits clear by the end that Eldrad survived.

"And the Dark Eldar dont know that Ynnead is in the Webway and stalking them for food."
Sorry, did I miss a whole extra book somewhere?
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 25 2016, 15:00

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:


I think this is just speculation based on slaanesh being killed off in AoS

Oh FFS, will people please stop with this bs, Slaanesh is not dead in Sigmar and will almost certainly be a moajor plot point in the near future.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Sat Aug 27 2016, 14:11

@Jimsolo wrote:

It seems clear that Ynnead did indeed wake up, but only at a fraction of his power.  That's still enough to be a threat to Slaanesh, though, and there's always time for his power to grow.

Slaanesh has been described as consuming all but a billionth (I'm assuming that's an exaggeration but still) of the living eldar during her birth, and that was after millennia of slowly growing off of their excess.  Of those left, she still consumes a portion of them and is regularly fed by numerous other races.

I doubt a fraction of ynneads power (which isn't supposed to come to fruition until every single eldar is dead) is any threat to slaanesh.  I could be wrong, as GW fluff is getting lazier and sloppier every edition.  They might just "make it happen" but as it stands I think they're just introducing the idea to a wider 40k audience.

Even at full power Ynnead's chances against slaanesh (the weakest of the chaos gods) are considered to be "the faintest of hopes".

and ya slaanesh isn't dead in WHFB... I mean Age of Sigmarines - just put out of the way while they try to convince parents that it's an acceptable hobby.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Nov 24 2016, 03:25

Not to read too much into it but one of the path books, I think "Path of the Outcast", has a solitaire character who has a conversation with the protagonist.  There's a section to the effect of "just because something is consumed, doesn't mean it is gone" with reference to Slaanesh consuming Eldar souls.

I've always taken it to mean that their ultimate idea was that the Eldar souls can somehow be reconstituted.  Maybe you could get Slaanesh to eat something unpalletable and have her regurgitate all the eaten Eldar, or spit their essence out into the galaxy to be born into something new.  In any event, when you get into the mechanics of Chaos it always ends up being so dumb, but hey, no more dumb than actual metaphysics!
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