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 A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 17 2016, 23:19

Okay I went back over the story to check a couple things. First for the things I was wrong about:

Spoiler:
 

How this could play into their moving one moment before midnight:

Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 00:48

@The Red King wrote:
I had almost stopped hating the imperium so thoroughly until this book came  and reminded me that these racist xenophobes are responsible for about 90 % of the universes problems and would rather kill someone for not being human than let them live 30 seconds longer and make the galaxy 25% nicer for everyone who isn't chaos.

These are not protagonists for any reasonable human being.
And that's why you play Dark Eldar, right? To be the good guys! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 02:52

@stevethedestroyeofworlds wrote:
And that's why you play Dark Eldar, right? To be the good guys! Very Happy
That was one of the things that drew me in to the dark eldar fluff, especially the covens.  Haemonculus ancients could very well have been the folks in charge when the eldar race basically felony-murdered a good chunk of the universe so hard that the fallout is still obvious after 10,000 years.  No repercussions.
@CurstAlchemist wrote:
the Thousand Sons can now more easily breach it and screw over the world even more when he messes with things he probably doesn't even understand
I don't know what would make you think ahriman would mess with stuff he doesn't understand tongue
@The Red King wrote:
Imperium... would rather kill someone for not being human than let them live 30 seconds longer and make the galaxy 25% nicer for everyone who isn't chaos.
Depends actually.  There are ordos xenos factions and rogue traders that regularly interact with xenos, steal their technology and occasionally collude to co-exist without the knowledge of most of the imperium.  Some of the inquisition even believe that eldar were intentionally permitted to survive (by the big E) so that their knowledge of the webway would not be totally snuffed out.

Also... they've ret-conned the dark angels so that the watchers in the dark are almost certainly xenos.  It's a bit trickier than that though as it's unclear if they're simply extra-terrestrial (possibly cabal members), extra-dimensional ("Daemons" of order or guilt), or even a future evolution of humanity sucked back in time by the death of caliban.  I doubt very much the citizenry of the imperium would accept them regardless, especially considering the whole "psykers so powerful they're immune to physical contact, psychic attack, or even being seen unless they want to be" thing.

That said, the watchers hold tremendous sway over what's probably the third largest space marine chapter (as well as their living primarch which they keep in stasis), and an effective veto over potential chapter masters.

And you thought they were just hiding their traitorous past.


Last edited by stilgar27 on Thu Aug 18 2016, 03:17; edited 1 time in total
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 03:11

I don't want dark eldar to be heroes. I just don't understand why the "heroes of the imperium" as gw wishes to portray them, are so utterly devoid of any heroic or even sympathetic qualities.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 04:37

I mean they're english what do you expect?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 04:40

I don't think GW ever intended for the audience to think of the Imperium as heroes. They are portrayed as monstrous, deeply flawed, and horrific, but at the same time the only defense against the darkness. It's a much darker kind of military fiction, where the protagonists aren't heroes so much.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 09:06

@Jimsolo wrote:
I don't think GW ever intended for the audience to think of the Imperium as heroes.  They are portrayed as monstrous, deeply flawed, and horrific, but at the same time the only defense against the darkness.  It's a much darker kind of military fiction, where the protagonists aren't heroes so much.  

Very much this. The whole background is written in such a way that makes it absolutely clear that the Imperium is not a nice place to be, it's brutal, stratified to benefit the noble classes in the extreme, intolerant of anything but the most useful variances (I'm thinking Ogryns for example) and just generally a horrible place. Space Marines are the ultimate protectors of humanity, with the irony being that actually the concept of humanity is entirely absent within the Imperium. Space Marines are that far removed physically and psychologically from ordinary humans that they don't really realise anymore that the Empire isn't what it was intended to be, and they are no longer protecting a civilisation as such, more just keeping a species alive on the off chance that it might be able to rectify the situation in the future.

That's why it's the Grim Dark, not the happy fluffy nirvana.

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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 10:26

At least we have fun in what we do.

Love what you do, they say.

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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 12:59

@CptMetal wrote:
At least we have fun in what we do.

Love what you do, they say.

That has to be the most casual explanation of the Dark Eldar ever.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 13:05

The only defense against the darkness would insinuate that the darkness is not 8 out of 10 times, better than humanity. The 40k universe would be a better place if humanity wasn't there, and I'm not really a fan of hating my own species lol.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 14:06

Are you a member of the Cabal?

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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 18:23

Well at this point in time humanity is the greatest source of fuel for the existence of Chaos. Artemis' own willingness, by his own word and action, to condemn a trillion humans to the powers of chaos over letting a single Eldar live is a prime example how their own "defenders" are more than willing to let chaos win. I was only half joking when I made the statement that he could be in later content as a fallen space marine worshiping a chaos god, he pretty much sounds like a Khornite to me with his fervent hatred of all things Xenos and fanaticism for killing. No where did his actions even show that he was truly loyal to the Imperium, after all he was more than willing to disobey orders to follow his own whim to achieve his own agenda, even if that agenda was within the mandate of his duties.

Earlier it was asked how the revival of the Eldar race would be seen as a benefit to the Imperium. The answer is quite simple, Space Marines believe that they are superior to everyone, they have as much arrogance as most Eldar but unlike the Eldar they have no tools to actually beat a Chaos God (and the Eldar only had this one tool which was wasted). The destruction of one of the prime Chaos Gods is something that they can't even come close to doing but they are arrogant enough to believe that they could destroy any revival of an Eldar Empire. Chaos gods are beings of the immaterial while the Eldar are of the material world and as such they are able to be struck down in mundane ways. So basically the mentality that Artemis could have taken was, hurt that which is near impossible to hurt and when that is done, kill the Eldar at your own whim later. Of course one like Artemis would never think like this.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 18:30

My thought process is less cabal and more harlequin. Your "hero" makes a terrible protagonist and ruins that particular story.

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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 18 2016, 20:35

I haven't read much Space Marine books (only one, about Uriel Ventris. "Black Sun, Dead Sky" or something like that it was called). Is Artemis' behaviour something that is common in other books? Like disobeying orders to further one's own agenda etc? Because to me as an outsider the Space Marines seem like they have a really tight connection to their superiors, which they hold to very high standards. So Artemis disobeying direct orders seems a bit out-of-character. At least I can't picture the same happening when say, an Ultramarine leading his squad gets the order to come back, he probably won't say "Nuh uh, my heroic deeds will justify (and somehow rectify) me disobeying your orders! Suck it, Chapter Master!".

If I were his boss I would be damn pissed. Sure it would be sweet that one of my subordinates has purged some Xenos but him disobeying my orders would still mean a good spanking for him when he returns. Ignoring the chain of command on the battlefield isn't something a supposedly battle-hardened Space Marine would do, since his experience should tell him that this is the fastest way to get a whole group of people into trouble or worse, killed.

Buuut that would require some practical thinking on the side of the author who clearly had no intention to present us a realistic battle-scenario.

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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Mon Aug 22 2016, 16:53

@Causalis wrote:
Is Artemis' behaviour something that is common in other books? Like disobeying orders to further one's own agenda etc? Because to me as an outsider the Space Marines seem like they have a really tight connection to their superiors, which they hold to very high standards.

Admittedly I barely skimmed the book but it depends very much on those orders.  Marine chapters are basically sovereign and depending on the situation they typically do what they feel is necessary with the option completely disregard orders when handed down from other organizations like the inquisition or a lord militant.  It's not uncommon for marines to veto or even execute commanders they feel to be incompetent, corrupt, or un-supportive of what the chapter feels is a more important objective.

Within chapters themselves it's another matter.  Hypno-indoctrination (supposedly) guarantees loyalty to the chapter, but space marines will still sometimes divert from orders to pursue what they perceive as better goals.  Chapters like the space wolves regularly suffer from discipline problems, while more reserved chapters like the imperial fists have honor duels and penance rituals to deal with internal conflicts.    All that said - some conflicts do (occasionally) escalate to the point of intra-chapter war, which is fluff-wise why you can have chapter vs same chapter games.

I imagine this is quite a bit more complicated inside the deathwatch though, as it's an amalgamation of other chapters, ultimately falling under the umbrella of ordo xenos.

I know people also complained about artemis simply "knowing" where eldrad is, but if that's shocking to you, you probably haven't read many space marine books.  "Intuition" doesn't even begin to cover the near instinctual understanding space marines seem to have about the warp, daemons, and psykers in general.  You could probably chalk it up to who their (grand) father is, but in general it's probably just lazy writing.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Mon Aug 22 2016, 21:28

Quote :
Admittedly I barely skimmed the book but it depends very much on those orders. Marine chapters are basically sovereign and depending on the situation they typically do what they feel is necessary with the option completely disregard orders when handed down from other organizations like the inquisition or a lord militant. It's not uncommon for marines to veto or even execute commanders they feel to be incompetent, corrupt, or un-supportive of what the chapter feels is a more important objective.

Artemis got his commands to turn around from Watch Commander Mordelai. I don't know the hierarchy of the Deathwatch but I assume he is Artemis' superior.

Quote :
All that said - some conflicts do (occasionally) escalate to the point of intra-chapter war, which is fluff-wise why you can have chapter vs same chapter games.

I am vaguely aware that the Space Wolves have fought the Dark Angels before, so I can understand that. But whilst disciplinary problems are somewhat acceptable within the hotblooded Space Wolves and their wulfen-geneseed, something like this just shouldn't be a thing inside the Deathwatch. We are talking about an organisation that hosts the elite of the elite! Each and every one of them is a battle-hardened badass who should have learned a long time ago to put aside their own feelings and follow the orders they are given.

Quote :
"Intuition" doesn't even begin to cover the near instinctual understanding space marines seem to have about the warp, daemons, and psykers in general. You could probably chalk it up to who their (grand) father is, but in general it's probably just lazy writing.

Damn, really? D: That is pretty disappointing. The book I read didn't rely on their supernatural instincts/plotdevices. But it did depict a great deal of the different upgrades a Space Marine has in his body. Like being able to slow down their heartbeat or the stump of an amputated arm building scar tissue within a few moments etc.

And yes, using the "The Emperor protects/guides/washes our dishes" asspull is just very lazy writing.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Mon Aug 22 2016, 21:37

Not the mention the deathwatch specifically brainwashes and hypno-inducts their recruits to absolute loyalty to the deathwatch this whole "loose cannon cop act" was ridiculous and out of character from every angle, but I guess he had to be a super edgy maverick type to sell to the kids.

Sad sad writing.

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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Mon Aug 22 2016, 22:56

Um... I've always been given to understand that internal conflict based on chapter differences IS a thing in the Deathwatch. A big thing.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Mon Aug 22 2016, 23:22

Their fluff (haven't read the new codex) would indicate that would be VERY frowned upon. VERY. Even this latest short story from black library specifically details the struggle of returning to his chapter with secrets he can't share. This would be a non factor if he hadn't had his "chapter before deathwatch" mentality brainwashed out of him. So it's pretty safe to assume that this writer thought "bloodthirsty brainwashed xenophobe" was too obviously not cool and decided to drop the middle bit to make him more 80's action movie cop, which is very out of character.

All moot really, this wasn't a case of inter chapter issues. It was direct insubordination on nothing but a hunch. That's trained out in a hurry no matter what chapter you're from.

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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Mon Aug 22 2016, 23:30

Quote :
Um... I've always been given to understand that internal conflict based on chapter differences IS a thing in the Deathwatch. A big thing.

As you said: Based on chapter differences. But in the story there is no information provided, regarding Mordelai's original chapter and nothing hints at Artemis disobeying his commands because of some chapter rivalry. There is a big difference between conflict that originates from the different Deathwatch members being "brought up" in rivalling chapters and Artemis just telling his boss to suck it. He literally says (translated, since I have the German copy):

"I know what the Emperor asks of me. [...] And with all due respect, Commander, your authority carries less weight than his [the Emperor's authority]. Artemis out."

Reading this again I only now notice how condescending Artemis sounds. I mean in his mind, the commander won't be pissed if he comes back and can report that he slew some xenos on the moon, thus justifying his disobedience. But his apparent lack of respect (and discipline) alone is enough to warrant a good ol' can of whoop-ass.

Is this really the canon way the Deathwatch operates? Has someone read a Deathwatch novel and can confirm/deny that they are special snowflakes that put their ego before their orders? To be fair, if Artemis would have done some amazingly heroic thing, the commander would probably forgive him. But from the Deathwatch's perspective, all Artemis did was abandon imperial citizens that were attacked by xenos to fly to the moon, where he and his crew slew a bit over a dozen Harlequins. This means that an uncertain amount of human citizens or soldiers died because Artemis and his crew abandoned their positions (they were sent to the planet after all, to fight the xenos that attacked the inhabitants there). It's not like Artemis pimpslaped a greater Daemon by himself back into the warp. All he did was kill a handful of Harlequins and stop the ritual - and it isn't even clear if Artemis was aware that Eldrad was performing such a ritual or if he and his team just shot him because he is just another xenos.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Tue Aug 23 2016, 03:13

I think Artemis sounds exactly like most Space Marines. He puts his own personal glory and 'honor' above the greater welfare of the people he's ostensibly been created to protect, and operates on a level of childish impulsiveness. (Space Marines are, after all, children. With virtually no constructive socialization beyond adolescence, they are frighteningly immature in many ways.)

The lore is full of examples of this impulsive bullheadedness leading Space Marines to ruin (or worse yet, this off-the-handle gloryhounding being used deliberately by their enemies to lead them around by the nose). This just happens to be one of those occasions when it all worked out for the Space Marines.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Tue Aug 23 2016, 10:01

I once read a story where a guard commander actually says exactly that. He says that Space Marines are just children that are given the best weapons and that are told repeatedly that they are the best.
He looks down on them and he's actually right.

Even the Primarch are just kids. I keep thinking that the whole Heresy could've been prevented with a family therapy.

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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Tue Aug 23 2016, 22:56

So basically, despite the claims that Space Marines are an Elite military force, they are an unorganized and undisciplined group of selfish man-children.

To maintain discipline Artemis would have to be punished because to not do so would be to encourage more people to act on their own accord, and disobey orders. By not punishing Watch Force Artemis, those within that military organization are basically being told that crimes are only punishable if they don't achieve some kind of personal glory while committing those offenses. Military discipline is important as believing that the whole is more important then the individual and that you will be punished for disobedience helps to keep everyone working together as a unified force.

Artemis' action might have defeated a few dozen Eldar at the cost of about half his Watch Force he could have, and most likely did, cost the lives of other space marines fighting on the planet by not being where he was ordered to be. While Space Marines probably don't care about the dead Guard and civilians they too would have been affected by the lose of Artemis' men. Most likely the Mon'keig have no idea what was happening so I can't see the death of a few dozen Eldar as being viewed as equal to Artemis', his Watch Force's, and the Corvus Blackstar crew's crimes of Unauthorized Absence and Disobeying the Orders of a Superior Commissioned Officer. Artemis and his men at minimum should have been heavily sanctioned and reprogrammed (I believe that the Deathwatch brainwash their members when they join, I could be misremembering) for their crimes especially do to the fact that it was during a battle. At worst, they should have all been executed.

Artemis' achievement, if viewed as one by his commanding officers, should not excuse the criminal acts committed by Watch Force Artemis, and the crew of the Corvus Blackstar that transported them to the moon.
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Tue Aug 23 2016, 23:12

Reminds of Rynn something Space Marine Battle, with the Crimson Fists.
Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Wed Aug 24 2016, 01:08

@Marrath wrote:
Reminds of Rynn something Space Marine Battle, with the Crimson Fists.
Spoiler:
 
Remember that they basically said if the force field wasn't there, he would have been celebrated for disobeying the order and killing a major ork leader in the Waaaagh

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