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 A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins

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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 11 2016, 11:12

An army being fragile (toughness 3) is actually quite common. People only perceive it as being an exception because the majority of players plays Space Marines. If it were split 50 - 50 no one would bet an eye or go like "aw, they are so fragile, that sucks!". They would say "Yup, Toughness 3. That's normal, nothing to see here".

All these armies have T3 troops:

-Eldar
-Dark Eldar
-Harlequins
-Tyranids
-Skitarii
-Cult Mechanicus
-Tau
-Militarum Tempestus
-Astra Militarum
-Inquisition

Of course being T3 is objectively weaker than being T4 but I think that shouldn't be something noteworthy because it is so common.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 11 2016, 11:39

Daemons, daemon kin and CSM all have T3 troops as well

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 11 2016, 11:46

It's not just Toughness that counts towards fragility though. There's armour saves, the availability of cover/invulnerable saves and/or means to boost those saves (psychic powers etc), any secondary 'saves' such as RP or FNP, AV of transport vehicles and so on.

Although not directly related to fragility, you also need to consider the point cost of the models and their offensive ability. This is the main problem with Wyches, for example. Not only are they frail, with T3, 6+ save and only getting FNP after 2-3 turns (along with FNP being exponentially less effective on models with low Toughness), they also suffer from high points cost and laughable offensive ability. Harlequins at least do not have that last issue as they hit like a ton of bricks if suitably equipped.

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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 11 2016, 12:10

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Harlequins at least do not have that last issue as they hit like a ton of bricks if suitably equipped.

Yes, which is a characteristic that many low toughness models display. They are either spamable and generate their power through numbers (think Imperial Guardsmen) or they have good offensive capability on their own (think Skitarii Vanguard). The later have 18" S3 assault 3 weapons which do two additional wounds on a to-wound roll of a 6 (these 6s wound regardless of toughness) all for 9 points a model. They also have 4+ armour, 6+ FNP and reduce the toughness of any enemy unit they are locked in combat with by -1.

Comparing Skitarii Vanguard to Kabalite Warriors it is very apparent which one came out post-decurion.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 11 2016, 12:26

I don't care that we have T3 5+ or AV10. That never bothered me.

The real problem is ignores cover and twin linked shooting everywhere, truly stupid powerful psychics, 2 or 3++ re roll save units + fnp and to a lesser extent interceptor, shooting that does not need LOS and buffed or full BS overwatch.

Just to top it off we do not have access to any of these super powers ourselves OR any defences for them.

Were looking at the result of codex creep on roids here people.
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 11 2016, 12:39

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I don't care that we have T3 5+ or AV10. That never bothered me.

The real problem is ignores cover and twin linked shooting everywhere, weapons that do not need LOS and truly stupid powerful psychics and to a lesser extent interceptor and buffed or full BS overwatch.

Just to top it off we do not have access to any of these tricks ourselves OR any defences for them.

I am talking pure DE obviously.

This! Playing fragile armies never bothered me either as it is an inherent characteristic of that army. That would be like playing a piano and complaining that one has to hit the small keys with their fingers.

Also: Formations. The big thingy that came up with the introduction of the Decurion formation are formations that give a ton of special rules. All newer codices have some kind of Decurion formation plus three or four other formations stock.

But there is a silver line on the horizon, as it seems that the new Death Masque box is only the beginning of what seems to be a campaign/release wave for all kinds of Eldar. Hopefully the True Kin will get a piece of that cake...
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 11 2016, 12:41

Causalis wrote:
But there is a silver line on the horizon, as it seems that the new Death Masque box is only the beginning of what seems to be a campaign/release wave for all kinds of Eldar. Hopefully the True Kin will get a piece of that cake...

Let's hope it's a tastier piece than the one Harlequins got...

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 11 2016, 19:46

It's not just toughness 3 as others have noted, but a total fragility in the codex where there is almost nothing that can't be downed with lucky bolter fire, or any heavy weapon (usually on a vehicle that our most useful troops/transports can't hurt in return).

Many armies get roughly 3 toughness 3 wounds for the price of one of ours.  A lot of these are mech heavy and have high AV targets to hide behind (or in) while armies like daemons get a boat load of special rules and a 5++ (if not shrouded and FNP) on those toughness 3 models.

I think it was shredder who summed it after the 7th edition book by basically saying - Playing the dark eldar now is like playing a hard video game, but not because it was intended to be hard.  Instead it's broken to the point that nothing works the way it's supposed to.  So you muddle through it until eventually your skill level can't overcome the increasing difficulty and you just give up.

Haven't seen shredder in months btw.
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Draco
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 11 2016, 19:51

stilgar27 wrote:
 Instead it's broken to the point that nothing works the way it's supposed to.  So you muddle through it until eventually your skill level can't overcome the increasing difficulty and you just give up.

Haven't seen shredder in months btw.

This part was kind of haunting Shocked haha
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Saunders
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 11 2016, 20:00

Players have gotten very good at playing the victim in less than two years.


Last edited by Saunders on Thu Aug 11 2016, 20:12; edited 1 time in total
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 11 2016, 20:03

Mostly I've just gotten very good at playing other armies tongue


Last edited by stilgar27 on Thu Aug 11 2016, 20:57; edited 1 time in total
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Saunders
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Thu Aug 11 2016, 20:12

Touche
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Fri Aug 12 2016, 13:42

So getting back on topic, has anyone gotten any brilliant ideas on how to use these new units/formations? I am still waiting on some broken deathstar combo to come out of this...
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Fri Aug 12 2016, 13:50

Well I think the new Death Jester and the Bikes will see some use. Paying 5 points for a rerollable jink or shrouded? Seems reasonable to me.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Fri Aug 12 2016, 17:02

My current most ridiculous deathstar benefits from the death jester.

Dark eldar Archon w/ shadowfield & armor of misery (optional, included because I play Dark Eldar)

Eldrad
Farseer lvl3 (optional for redundancy)

Cast of players (equipped as desired, at least with mask of secrets)

Corsair prince w/SF and reaper of the outer dark (for "forced" charging)

Void dreamer level 3 w/SF rolling all on aethermancy.


You're looking for fortune from the eldar and everything else is gravy. Best case scenario you get the no scatter deepstrike corsair power that allows you to charge after. The unit teleports anywhere it wants and uses fortune for 3 rerollable 2++. Adding in the death jester means shrouding, combined with dispersion field for unit wide 2+ rerollable cover saves. The harlequin powers as well as the death jester benefit from the major -4-6 ld debuff on death is not enough. That's without getting into the damage output of a unit that can psychic one unit, shoot another (to hopefully run it off with DiNE) and then charge another one. It's great.


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Fri Aug 12 2016, 17:43

Points cost for that beast?

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Sun Aug 14 2016, 06:57

Death Masque story

Spoiler:
 

I found the story lacking in it's execution and a few things that happened in it as strange. For instance
Spoiler:
 
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Sun Aug 14 2016, 06:59

Apologies. It's like 900 points. And yes. The death masque fluff pissed me off.

"Hmm this dead body is facing the sky.... te mus bee on teh moonz!!"

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Sun Aug 14 2016, 16:08

CurstAlchemist wrote:
Death Masque story

Spoiler:
 

Except that, to the Deathwatch, xenos are the great enemy. Dealing a blow to Chaos at the cost of revitalizing and saving the Eldar race is a very poor deal for them.

Quote :
I found the story lacking in it's execution and a few things that happened in it as strange. For instance
Spoiler:
 

I don't follow. If my enemy puts a grenade in his mouth, why wouldn't I kick him away? I don't want to get blown up...
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Sun Aug 14 2016, 16:30

Jimsolo wrote:
Except that, to the Deathwatch, xenos are the great enemy.  Dealing a blow to Chaos at the cost of revitalizing and saving the Eldar race is a very poor deal for them.
 

He really didn't even know what they were doing, well maybe he did, after all Artemis was so great that he just knew that the Eldar were on that moon and disobeyed orders to go there. He could feel them, because he is Artemis and the Force was strong in him, especially when it comes to fighting Xenos.

Spoiler:
 

Jimsolo wrote:
I don't follow.  If my enemy puts a grenade in his mouth, why wouldn't I kick him away?  I don't want to get blown up...

Because it is so poorly written
Spoiler:
 

Edit: I just realize I phrased my initial comment about the grenade poorly and created some confusion.
Spoiler:
 


Last edited by CurstAlchemist on Sun Aug 14 2016, 19:50; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Added a comment about the Craftworld's forces and realized I din't understand your comment properly.)
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Sun Aug 14 2016, 18:28

I'm just disappointed in my self really. I forgot that since the deathwatch were new the whole thing would be total space marine wankfic. I wouldn't be surprised if this was Wards work it is so poorly written.

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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Sun Aug 14 2016, 20:29

Okay, I have just read the Death Masque booklet. Sweet emperor on his golden throne, this is just stupid. Let me put it like this:

If you are going to buy a box for 125€ where two (roughly equal) forces face each other in battle what would your first guess be if I asked you to tell me how that story would go? I would have said "Well, since this is a battle box I think it'll describe the battle more or less equally between the two forces without taking sides and probably having an open or vague end".

BOY OH BOY WAS I WRONG!

Space Marine Wankfic doesn't even come close to describe this pile of garbage.

Spoiler:
 

I am surprised at myself how pissed I am about this story. What a huge waste of potential...
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Sun Aug 14 2016, 20:40

That sounds...... rather stupid

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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Sun Aug 14 2016, 20:43

@Causalis nice review of the mini campaign.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: A place for Eldrad's sprue and Cheap Harlequins   Sun Aug 14 2016, 21:00

It's all sadly spot on.

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