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 Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Sat Jul 23 2016, 19:37

@Causalis wrote:
Since I have never known the Deldar of ye olden days, can someone briefly explain what the special characters did (special rules, stats)? The Baron sounds very interesting and I would like to hear what Vect's special rules were. After all, he is THE ruler of Commarragh..


Well... I typed out a whole big long thing, but before I posted it cavash beat me to it so I deleted most.  Here's a bit more about the baron though -

At 105 points he was basically an intermediate level HQ, on a skyboard with a shadowfield, that brought a lot of special rules.  First of all he granted stealth to whatever unit he joined, which probably doesn't sound like much, but this was back when you could field gigantic (like 65 model) beastmaster units.  Since beasts tend to live in cover anyway it was pretty useful.  He also had hit and run, which is a conferred skill so he gave it to whatever unit he joined.  He also had a phantasm grenade launcher which basically gave the whole beast unit assault and defensive grenades in 5th edition (back when it was useful).  These monstrous combo units became known as the "beast star", and were actually pretty competitive.

Less useful - he also made hellions a troop choice... which was interesting at least, and gave them various buffs if he joined them.  He also allowed a +1 bonus to the dice roll for determining deployment zones.  Finally he was able to put out 5, strength 6 attacks at initiative 6 with his hellglaive on a charge, which is pretty impressive for what is basically a librarian level HQ.


Last edited by stilgar27 on Sun Jul 24 2016, 05:00; edited 4 times in total
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Elvellyn
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Sat Jul 23 2016, 19:39

Don't get me wrong, i love the fluff of the special characters and loved all of the path novels. I would like to see the return of some and new ones added. Its just fielding them that i have an issue with. Sure, i've done it because hey - they have great special rules. But my inner fluff bunny cried out in horrer and i definitely enjoyed that game less.

@Cavash wrote:
So, if you don't like Sythrac and his fluff but like his rules, run him under a different name for your Kabal but use the same stats and rules.

I like this idea, thanks Cavash. Now a little annoyed i didn't think of it haha. CurstAlchemist hit the nail on the head with what i was trying to say:

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
I don't thing they were saying that Vect isn't a big deal, actually that goes back to the core of what they were saying, unless you are not fielding his Kabal, why would Vect decide to put himself in the middle of another Archon's forces (alone) and expose himself to the risk of being killed or contribute to expanding the power of a rival Archon when he is that important? Allying in his own forces sure, he is doing it for the gain but the risk to himself is pretty high to be surrounded by those who are not his own men and bodyguards.

I actually would like to see the return of people like Vect, Lady Malys, the Duke, and the Baron, they are great for people who want to build and field armies that are based around them, but there are also others out there that want to be the no-body on the rise in the city and to place someone like Vect at the mercy of some random Kabal just doesn't really fit the fluff, but the choice should be there for those who want their Kabal/Coven/Wych Cult to be attached as part of those important people's power base.

Thinking about it more, i think i just wish there was lots of fluff stories but then some generic characters that had the neat special rues too.

Thanks Causalis/Cavash for getting that comprehensive list of removed models in there. They were all before my time. I definitely understand all the compaints about them being removed. Some pretty nice rules in there.


Last edited by Elvellyn on Sun Jul 24 2016, 01:01; edited 1 time in total
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Sat Jul 23 2016, 21:59

Sathonyx also had H&R (I don't think Hellions did normally, but I might misremember). That was one of the rules that confers to the unit, so it was a huge deal in allied lists.
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Haridar
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Sat Jul 23 2016, 23:19

This all sounds too good to be true, although there was a pic of new Eldrad sprue. It also makes me think that new Archon will be posed as our codex cover (which is probably cool since we don't have a lot of potential in converting our previous archon models), which is cool. Also interesting how they are going to jam this new Guard of the Black Library into Harlequin codex (Elite maybe, who knows).

But to be honest, I am a bit sceptical anyway. Even if the new characters will be released, EVEN if they are going to be good on the tabletop, DE army won't get a huge bonus out of it and it is sad.
And about the theme of "named vs generic characters" - there must be at least more of ANY characters we don't know, because we still have a lot of stuff we don't know in Commorragh. Even new generics like some HQ mandrake or any other stuff can imropve our view on fluff. But time will tell. Still, I'm not that mad or exited yet.

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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Sun Jul 24 2016, 00:21

Before posting I have to say that I'm pretty drunk, so take it with a grain of salt.

Personally, whenever I hear something like "Character X made a unit/formation consisting of 65 models with Stealth" etc. viable, I am thinking "Bullshit". This is just... too much. I know that in recent years 7th edition just went towards "my formation gives me stealth, shrouded, BS 7 and synchronised on every unit and I can reroll everything" etc.
But when you think about it, this is a game. It should be fun and not a pissing contest about who can bring the biggest, meanest formation that gimps his units to god status.

I do however, really love formations, since it gives us another "block" to design our army around etc. But I do think that the boni formations and special characters give should always be at most supportive, not game changing. They should give us fluffy stuff like "+1 on the PFP chart" or "stealth as long as Night Fighing is in effect". Small, nice, fluffy boni which are like a treat if you desing your list around a certain aspect of the army.

But currently formations are the main-stay of any competitive list. "Yeah, my Riptide Wing only needs a 3+ anyway to get the 3++ invuln and I can reroll failed invulns. Also, if I spend X marker lights, I can make my rockets Ignore Cover and Strenght D".

I have no problem in particular with Tau. But that is just an example of over the top formations. This is not a finely tuned mechanic that softly plays into fluffly aspects of the army. This is a competitive formation, designed do blast the everloving s*it out of every other faction.

Don't get me wrong. Special Charcters like Vect or Abbadon should still get rules that befit their unique "power level" in the fluff. But I don't think they should ever be so potent that entire strategies revolve around them and their Death Star, getting into CC etc.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Sun Jul 24 2016, 04:44

@Causalis wrote:
Before posting I have to say that I'm pretty drunk, so take it with a grain of salt.

Personally, whenever I hear something like "Character X made a unit/formation consisting of 65 models with Stealth" etc. viable, I am thinking "Bullshit". This is just... too much.

You're right actually - I should have dug out my old codex.

The way beastmasters used to work was each unit consisted of 1-5 beastmasters.  Each one had the option to take on a number of beasts depending on their type, the most numerous being kymarea which each beast master could take 5 of.

So maximum it was 5 beast masters, each with 5 kyamrea for a total of 30 models in the unit.  That said, 30 40mm models (some on flying bases) is still a huge unit.

My mind was mixing 5th and 7th edition entries.  The current max unit is 12 - which I was attributing to the number of kymarea you could take per beastmaster which would make it (5x12) +5 = very wrong.

Maybe I should say I was drunk too  geek

I was using fantasy cold ones as kymarea and cold one riders as beastmaster before 7th edition ruined all our fun.  They've since been re-purposed and most of my cold ones are now exodite "jet-bikes" with splinter cannons in my corsairs list.  They actually look pretty cool but I'm too lazy to take pictures.
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Thu Jul 28 2016, 12:44

Characters and their power level have always been a point of contention in 40k. their power as waxed and waned over the years as the designers felt their importance should diminish or be buffed. Back in 1st ed characters were where it was at. Like AoS at launch you just wouldn't field most units when you could field characters instead. Later editions toned them down. I left the hobby for many years around 4th ed so I can't say what happened during 4th-6th editions but I'm wiling to bet they got stronger at some point and then were nerfed again. 7th ed faces a similar problem now with formations. Formations are potent. This is what is screwing over the DE. Yeah the codex is weaker than others but it's not the codex per say that's crippling DE competitiveness it's the strength of other faction's formations. A straight Realspace Raid would have a reasonable chance of beating a straight Marine Combined Arms detach. But when you switch that out for a Demi-Company or a Skyhammer or you throw in all the formations and he extra rules they dish out then there's no competition. In the current game environment some factions are not playing the same game as others. Special characters, as well as decent formations can re-balance the weak DE and give them a fighting a chance.

The thing with characters is that without cool models to go with them GW will not release rules for them. Period. Given the priorities of GW (AoS, constantly buffing Marines, moving older kits over to plastic, getting into the 30k game etc) they have little time for playing around with the DE which at best was always a niche faction. The DE are never going to have as many special characters as the more popular and long running factions. But when an opportunity arises for some spotlight to be thrown onto the DE it should be taken and ran with. Given GW's 180 on community interaction in recent months it'd be wise for DE players to politely petition GW to do right by them and give the faction a nice special character and some appropriately tasty formations to go with it. There's an opportunity here (if the rumours are indeed true) for the Incubi to become the top-tier unit they should always have been, to get our Trueborn buffed so they're more than crappy kabalites with a bunch of blasters, to get formation options to field strong kabalite themed forces (coven armies are pretty decent but kabalite themed ones fall short), to just make DE more than the whipping boys of 40k.

There's doubt however on the veracity of the rumours. They look nice, they make sense, some of it has been confirmed by other sources but there's a doubt as to whether this is just wish-listing. We'll have to see where things go in the coming months. It'd be awesome though if that Archon character was released alongside the refurbished Tantalus. Be better still if GW surprises us with a plastic Tantalus kit!

One final point, if there is indeed to be a new kit for the Trueborn, might it come with a proper special weapons sprue so we can stop the scrounging for extra special weapons?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Thu Jul 28 2016, 12:49

A plastic Tantalus that was a dual kit for the Dais of Destruction would certainly be welcomed, although that is entirely wishlisting on my part.

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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Thu Jul 28 2016, 13:02

Quote :
One final point, if there is indeed to be a new kit for the Trueborn, might it come with a proper special weapons sprue so we can stop the scrounging for extra special weapons?

I would like to think so. But it will probably just be one special weapon of each type. Look at the Skitarii Vanguard/Rangers Kit. They too come with a lot of special weapons but every kit only contains one of each weapon type. Thus you would have to buy three boxes if you want to give a Squad three Arc Rifles etc.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Thu Jul 28 2016, 13:08

As much as I want it all to be true, Natfka is a notorious eldar fan and may not have fact checked as hard as he could. Has anyone seen any other corroborating sources?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Thu Jul 28 2016, 14:10

I wasn't aware he fact checked at all!

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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Thu Jul 28 2016, 16:42

@The Red King wrote:
As much as I want it all to be true, Natfka is a notorious eldar fan and may not have fact checked as hard as he could.  Has anyone seen any other corroborating sources?

The only one that comes close is Sad Panda on Dakka saying that GW are working on 8th and that it'll be sometime next year at the earliest. Pretty much everything else is wild speculation.

As for Natfka, fact checking is a foreign concept to him. Same goes for BoLS.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Thu Jul 28 2016, 20:36

I just meant that he is always eager to see Eldar.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Fri Jul 29 2016, 05:23

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I wasn't aware he fact checked at all!

His hit-miss record confirms that.
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Fri Jul 29 2016, 07:39

Quote :
Am i the only one who isn't pro DE special characters? It just doesn't feel fluffy to me. I mean we all make our own kabals with our own paint schemes. DE don't like to help each other. Why would someone who probably has more important things to do with their own kabal help out any of ours?

I guess when it comes to Vect and his cronies - no, he doesnt help you. Instead you are helping him, doing anything they say to continue your existence of your oh so mighty Kabal.

If Sythrac or Vect in the army - everything DE around will know - this Kabal are Vect bitches. And they would be right.

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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Fri Jul 29 2016, 09:19

Only other rumour that is similar I found on Spikey Bits and that was sourced from BOLS. Rumour concerned new plastic Eldar character models.

http://www.spikeybits.com/2016/07/new-plastic-eldar-character-models-coming-soon.html

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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Fri Jul 29 2016, 12:33

We can hope. The Phoenix Lords have needed updates for a long time.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Fri Jul 29 2016, 12:41

I've actually been amazed that all the old 2e and 3e models, like the Eldar characters, Abaddon, Ragnar etc, have never been updated. Given the limitations of the casting process for metal miniatures the models are all very 2D and static and really show their age.

I know plastic models are hideously expensive to produce but they could surely manage to put 4 or more on a sprue to cut down production costs. Hopefully the new plastic Eldrad is the first of many re-designs of these classic miniatures.

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Fri Jul 29 2016, 16:29

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I've actually been amazed that all the old 2e and 3e models, like the Eldar characters, Abaddon, Ragnar etc, have never been updated. Given the limitations of the casting process for metal miniatures the models are all very 2D and static and really show their age.

To be honest I always kind of liked the older more static models, but that probably just shows my age and affinity for metal over plastic. Two of my favorite models of all time are the ancient rubric marines (who should all look identical and static anyway) and noise marine, because um guitar guns and mohawks.  I just hope they get some better rules in the rumored update.

As you mentioned, it's very likely they'll be updating at least some of the old models, as Kharne is supposedly scheduled for later this year and it would not surprise me at all to see a new Abbadon to go with him, especially if they ever get this black crusade narrative off the ground.

I do hope the new prince model (if he really does go over to the harlies) isn't too far from the old metal one, as I just finished painting mine.

What always amazes me though is the number of vehicles that are almost or entirely unchanged since their first iterations.  This seems to effect skimmers in particular for some reason, like the eldar vyper and space marine (plastic) land speeder which are both terrible old designs, and absolutely no fun to assemble.

Comparing either with say a venom, harlequin skimmer, or the dark angels vengence/darkshroud speeder kit and it's just as jarring as some of the out of date metal models.
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Frederick Vael
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Fri Jul 29 2016, 17:58

Duuuuuude, land speeders are awesome, as are vyper!
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Fri Jul 29 2016, 22:35

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/07/40k-breaking-eldrad-issues-a-challenge.html

Well this points to a new eldar campaign. Looks like harlequins versus ulthwe to me. Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Fri Jul 29 2016, 23:18

Quote :
Well this points to a new eldar campaign. Looks like harlequins versus ulthwe to me. Thoughts?

Did we read the same thing? It much rather looks like Eldar and Harlequins vs. Deathwatch or Black Legion. That would at least make much more sense fluffwise. Sure, the Harlequins occasionally even fight against other Eldar but the vast majority of times they come to aid their brethren and even broker peace treaties between Commorragh and the other Eldar.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Fri Jul 29 2016, 23:28

The black watchmen sounds like a name for ulthwe and their black guardians.

Considering the current trick the harlequin are trying to pull is trickling slaneesh into using all her power to save the Eldar of could easily believe that some of their actions might not appear to be the best course of action to saner minds.

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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Fri Jul 29 2016, 23:39

Same could be said about the Harlequins, since they are guarding the Black Library -> Black Guardians. So maybe Eldar vs. Harlequins all along? Or rather specificly: Ulthwe vs. Black Library Harlequins?

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PostSubject: Re: Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's   Fri Jul 29 2016, 23:46

Well the section referring to the black watchmen is presumably from the harlequin perspective.

Assuming there was a reason for the different colors of text which I think is safe to say.

Besides in fighting was a core of the fenris story and a good way to incite feelings of the end times.

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