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 Difference Between DS and Using Rules for DS

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tegs
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Difference Between DS and Using Rules for DS   Fri Jul 22 2016, 18:30

This came up in an unrelated thread, but I think it's important enough to bring up on it's own.

Some players abuse Deep Strike rules by trying to use items which require DS when doing things that aren't actually Deep Striking.  A good example is Gate of Infinity and teleport homers, locator beacons, servo-skulls, etc.  GoI uses the rules for DS, but is not actually Deep Striking, so it doesn't benefit from those items.

From the 7E draft FAQ:
"Q: Does a unit always enter the game from Reserves when Deep Striking? The rules for Deep Striking seem to imply that being the case, even when a unit is already on the table. As an example, does a unit of Warp Talons that is using Gate of Infinity trigger its Warpflame Strike each time they use the psychic power?
A: Not unless explicitly stated – in the example you use, Gate of Infinity has the unit arrive anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike. This doesn’t mean that it goes into Deep Strike Reserve, or that you have to make a Reserve Roll for the unit and so on, and it means that you don’t get to use the Warpflame Strike each time you do this."

The rules for Warpflame Strike start out with: "When Warp Talons arrive by Deep Strike, all enemy units..."

Oun own draft FAQ and the Blood Angels draft FAQ have similar rulings which all hinge on the difference between DS and using the rules for DS.

It's been argued that there is a difference between DS and DS reserve which gets around that, but that's incorrect.  From the DS rules:
"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve."

A unit cannot enter from DS unless it is in reserve, so DS and DS reserve are actually the same thing.  A codex could override that if a rule caused a unit to arrive by DS, but it has to say that they arrive by DS rather than using DS rules.

This is big deal in my mind because it means that a battlestar has a risk of scattering somewhere where it isn't a threat or suffering a mishap every time GoI is used.  It also messes up precise template placement, which is obviously a serious threat to us.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Difference Between DS and Using Rules for DS   Fri Jul 22 2016, 20:31

I think BetrayTheWorld covered the rules as written pretty well on this. Some items, such as our Webway Portal have wording that describes arriving from deep strike reserve, which would not be able to be used when using Gate of Infinity. Others describe when arriving using deep strike. RAW these would allow Gate of Infinity to land without scatter.

RAI - I tend to agree with you that the intent is that only arriving from reserves should qualify, but RAI arguments are always risky because unless the designer is telling us then we can't be 100% sure that is the intent.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Difference Between DS and Using Rules for DS   Fri Jul 22 2016, 23:04

Gate of Infinity absolutely benefits from Locator Beacons.

Here's the difference (once again).  Some powers, abilities, or equipment specify they trigger on (or apply to) models/units arriving by Deep Strike.  Some say they trigger on (or apply to) models/units arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.  

A very, very few rules allow a model to use the rules for Deep Strike without actually arriving from Deep Strike reserve.  (To my knowledge: Gate of Infinity and Warp Tunnel, although I'm sure there are more I'm not thinking of.)  These rules use the rules for Deep Strike, but as the models were not in Deep Strike Reserve prior to their arrival, they do not trigger 'Reserve' abilities/equipment (Webway Portals, Warpflame Strike).  

They DO trigger/use rules which don't specify Deep Strike Reserve.  If your Librarian uses Gate of Infinity, and arrives within range of a Locator Beacon, you check the equipment rule.  GOI says that you use the rules for Deep Strike.  The Beacon says that Deep Strikers within range don't scatter.  If you scatter them, you are not following the rules for Deep Strike.

The 'Reserve' bit is the critical difference.  
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PostSubject: Re: Difference Between DS and Using Rules for DS   Sat Jul 23 2016, 05:48

As I quoted above, and in the other thread: "When Warp Talons arrive by Deep Strike, all enemy units..." Not Deep Strike Reserve, just Deep Strike.

If BetrayTheWorld and Jimsolo's reasoning was correct, then the FAQ would have stated that Warpflame Strike is triggered by GoI. The FAQ proves that reasoning incorrect.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Difference Between DS and Using Rules for DS   Sat Jul 23 2016, 09:02

I think I see the argument you are making there now, which I hadn't quite picked up before. Is the following a fair summary of what you are saying:

1) Pre-FAQ there is (potentially) a legitimate distinction between rules referring to 'arriving from deep strike reserve' and those referring to 'arriving from deep strike'.
2) The FAQ uses an example (Warp Talons) that does not use the word reserve, and declares it does not work because the unit is not arriving from reserve.
Therefore
3) The FAQ removes the distinction between deep strike reserves and deep strike.

That seems a reasonable interpretation of the FAQ entry to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Difference Between DS and Using Rules for DS   Sat Jul 23 2016, 16:25

Precisely.

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