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 Rhino / Razorback spam problem

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Tue Jul 26 2016, 05:36

@stilgar27 wrote:
@Archon Vitcus wrote:
Use Corpse thief Claw backed up by dark artisan.

Ya - otherwise he might regret bringing grav.

Anyway

I've been biting my tongue on this thread, but at this point it's 5 days old and no one has even asked what company he was facing.

But ya - A halfway competent space marine player can be pretty effective regardless (gw designed them that way), but giving him 550 points worth of free, twin-linked heavy weapon sporting, objective secured having, units that poison shooting can't touch and lances gain no advantage against?

Awesome

Well, as long as he doesn't know how to screen his transports (sorry reavers/lances), doesn't think to throw a 100 point dreadnought or two in to a free/objective secured drop pod (sorry grotesques), and forgets that he can field pretty much whatever else he wants since he's already got 20 Obj secured units for 880 points.  My personal favorite is 3 ravenwing formations inside the lion's blade (sorry dark eldar.*), but librarius conlaves, flyer formations, etc are all pretty hard for the dark kin to counter.  Worse still, pretty much every marine list I see contains a tiny CADs for FW units like fire raptors, contemtpor/mortis dreads, and sicarans which all pretty much eat flyers/skimmers for breakfast.

I honestly don't have any solutions in 7th - so feel free to ignore me, but do try to appreciate that marines have all the tools they need even inside the restrictions of the battle companies - it's more a matter of usage Sleep

I was assuming its Iron Hands or White Scar , I dont see much of any other ones being taken anymore, will see Ultra Marines time to time.

But I was talking about way to deal with Just a Demi-company, if they take Demi+other formations (librarian conclave, speeder formation or skyhammer) then there is just about nothing a Basic DE book can even do, even Eldar are losing to SM in tournaments atm.


Another thing you could do is take Wraithknight(s) I know its not DE, but D weapons will completely kill rhinos and even deal with Deathstars, keep it away from Grav and you should be fine.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Tue Jul 26 2016, 09:56

@stilgar27 wrote:
@Archon Vitcus wrote:
Use Corpse thief Claw backed up by dark artisan.

Ya - otherwise he might regret bringing grav.

Anyway

I've been biting my tongue on this thread, but at this point it's 5 days old and no one has even asked what company he was facing.

But ya - A halfway competent space marine player can be pretty effective regardless (gw designed them that way), but giving him 550 points worth of free, twin-linked heavy weapon sporting, objective secured having, units that poison shooting can't touch and lances gain no advantage against?

Awesome

Well, as long as he doesn't know how to screen his transports (sorry reavers/lances), doesn't think to throw a 100 point dreadnought or two in to a free/objective secured drop pod (sorry grotesques), and forgets that he can field pretty much whatever else he wants since he's already got 20 Obj secured units for 880 points.  My personal favorite is 3 ravenwing formations inside the lion's blade (sorry dark eldar.*), but librarius conlaves, flyer formations, etc are all pretty hard for the dark kin to counter.  Worse still, pretty much every marine list I see contains a tiny CADs for FW units like fire raptors, contemtpor/mortis dreads, and sicarans which all pretty much eat flyers/skimmers for breakfast.

I honestly don't have any solutions in 7th - so feel free to ignore me, but do try to appreciate that marines have all the tools they need even inside the restrictions of the battle companies - it's more a matter of usage Sleep

Ultras or iron hands for me.
They love centurions. I do NOT use talos so I let them tailor and replace their grav with LC, ML, HBs, SB and Omni. Quite a deadly unit vs DE, sometimes arriving in pods.
Screening does not stop me. Poison/dissies shred muhreens. Bikes and skimmers fly over them.
Obsec pods with dreads (my opponents take 2 with hvy flamers) doesn't scare me or my grots.
I'm cool with the mass obsec even if I have none.
Ravenwing 2+ reroll cover i deal with in CC (reavers and grots).

Only SOME of the top tournament battle company lists (conclave, flyer formations, forgeworld etc) are a real pain for a DE primary army.
And that's not bad! Very Happy
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Mon Aug 01 2016, 11:54

Dark Angels Lion's Blade wins the BAO, undefeated - with no allies, no deathstar, and no cheese besides the free transports.  2 more battle companies in the top 5, both white scars so similar in nature.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/07/18/bay-area-open-live-coverage/

I've run pretty much the same list a few times at the request of friends getting ready for local tournaments, against which none have really stood a chance.

Totally off topic, but out of 172 players 2 people brought chaos marines drunken

Fix yer darn book GW.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Mon Aug 01 2016, 12:21

This was the winning list:

Brandon Grant’s Dark Angels

Lion’s Blade Strike Force

Company Master: (Warlord) Fist, Artificer Armor

Chaplain: Bike, Auspex

Tactical Squad: Rhino, Grav-Cannon,

Tactical Squad: Rhino, Multi-Melta

Tactical Squad: Razorback (HB), Heavy Bolter

Tactical Squad: Razorback (HB)

Tactical Squad: Razorback (HB)

Tactical Squad: Pod, Melta/Combi-Melta

Assault Squad: 2x Flamers, Pod

Assault Squad: 2x Flamers, Pod

Devastator Squad: Rhino, Grav-Cannon

Devastator Squad: Rhino, Grav-Cannon

Scouts

Ravenwing Strike Force

Techmarine: Bike, Auspex

Ravenwing Command Squad: 5 Black Knights, Apothecary, 5 Plasma Talons, Grenade Launcher

Ravenwing Black Knight Squad: 5 Black Knights, Huntmaster, 5 Plasma Talons, Grenade Launcher

Ravenwing Darkshroud

The items in orange are free. By my reckoning, that's 410 extra points in an 1850 list, so basically 22% extra free.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Mon Aug 01 2016, 13:32

I'd be less worried about the free points per se, and more about the fact that I can see over 20 objective secured units in that list, and therefore it could make it almost impossible for an opponent to secure objectives.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Mon Aug 01 2016, 13:46

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I'd be less worried about the free points per se, and more about the fact that I can see over 20 objective secured units in that list, and therefore it could make it almost impossible for an opponent to secure objectives.

It's a double whammy really. Not only are the orange units free but they're also objective secured.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Mon Aug 01 2016, 14:41

I find the lion's blade to be particularly brutal.  It plays to the jinking/cover strategy of the dark angels by making assaults even more painful with full ballistic skill overwatch.  So basically it's tough to shoot them and it sucks to charge them.

I sometimes take a demi company lion's blade (full company freebies are still "unfriendly" in my meta) and plop a bunch of devastators down in the middle of the table to act as a zone control unit.  They almost never get charged because no one wants to eat a multi melta or grav sandwich on the way in (either comes with a side of bolter fire).

As for those extra 410 points - The winner here spent those on large squads of black knights, which in my opinion are one of the best units in all of 40k.
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Thu Aug 04 2016, 13:24

And that is the reason why I stopped playing DE and went Corsairs.

1 player a couple weks ago (playing the Relic) was extremely mad at me b.c I got to Move, shot+Reckless Abandon (6" move if you are within 12" of that unit) and then Assault Move with the relic. The Relic lets you Move no more than 6" per phase (cannot run). So I move 6" in movement phase (stayed within 12"), shot to move 6" in shooting phase finally in the assault phase I moved 6" more (Tho I rolled an 11 only can move 6").

After he read my rules he wasnt happy, then I told him, "You are literally playing 500points more than me with your formation, you can get OUT, SHOOT and get BACK IN you vehicles, I am literally 5x T3 1W dudes with 1 extra movement that you and sense Im holding the Objective you get TL against me, so stfu" he Lol and said" haha Alright yeah so its not that bad then"


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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Thu Aug 04 2016, 14:28

I always thought the relic wasn't allowed to move more than 6" per turn, not per phase?

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Thu Aug 04 2016, 14:32

Yeah I was at a local tournament where they thought my seer council was cheesy, but cheered the winning list of double skyhammer allied to a 4 flyer guard detachment.

Perceptions of OP are widely subjective.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Thu Aug 04 2016, 14:37

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I always thought the relic wasn't allowed to move more than 6" per turn, not per phase?

"the model carrying the Relic cannot Run and can never move more than 6" in any phase"

Warp Spiders are fantastic for moving that thing!

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Thu Aug 04 2016, 15:45

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I always thought the relic wasn't allowed to move more than 6" per turn, not per phase?

"the model carrying the Relic cannot Run and can never move more than 6" in any phase"

Warp Spiders are fantastic for moving that thing!

Yep! Its funny, so little ppl like/play/understand the Relic.

I lost to a tournament a few years ago b.c a GK player Jump his DreadKnight like 40" on turn 1 onto the relic. Honestly I thought it was funny.

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Thu Aug 11 2016, 00:09

To really compete against tournament staple lists like a battle company I find I can't do it with DE alone. You can still make the majority of your force DE, but I find I need some scat bikes and d-cannons to deal with spammed armor values and deathstars. A couple units of each is usually sufficient though. I won my last event against a white scars battle company doing just that.
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Fri Sep 09 2016, 14:33

@goofydk wrote:
Interesting idea. Might give those sslyth a chance.

none have a cheap alternative to the sslyth model?

I used Kabalites upon Naggaronths.
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