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goofydk
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PostSubject: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Wed Jul 20 2016, 13:56

Hey!

I recently ran into a problem in my local gaming club, some guy turned up with about 10 Rhino / Razorbacks.. and the squads to fill them. How do you deal with that??

I know we have a lot of options for AT but if I spam to much of that, I dont have any AI.
I like scourges for popping tanks but it seems I need 3-4 squads of them to take on that spam. And when I do get them, the squad pops out and usually kills half the my scourges at least.. Ravagers just still atm.. One of them cant reliable take on 1 Razorback in 1 turn.

Just wonder what works for you guys and still have things to take on the troops.

Thanks! Smile
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Wed Jul 20 2016, 14:11

Sounds like you're facing a SM Battle Company where they get the transports for free. In other words you're probably playing with a ~500 point deficit.

Best option to take out that many transports is probably multi-charging them with Grots.

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goofydk
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Wed Jul 20 2016, 15:08

Hmm grots.. not something I usually use.
I will give em try next time.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Wed Jul 20 2016, 21:19

Or Sslyth if you want the most points efficient vehicle wrecking infantry in the list.

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goofydk
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Wed Jul 20 2016, 22:04

Interesting idea. Might give those sslyth a chance.
I am looking for a way to take on the battle company as dark eldar. But it seems almost impossible.. can only hope for better Maelstrom cards..

none have a cheap alternative to the sslyth model?
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Wed Jul 20 2016, 22:04

SM battle company is one of my regular opponents.  He even tailors against DE and he's more scared of me than I am of him. Very Happy

A couple of lance ravagers and a couple of haywire scourge units will cover you shooting AT nicely.
But the real AT and AI workhorses are reavers (3 units of 6) with caltrops and a grotesquerie in raiders.

The terrain, parking lot and smoking wrecks create gridlock, limiting his movement and providing extra LOSB cover for the CC units.

Spread out objs and don't be overwhelmed by the size of his army. Pick a point of attack and get to work!
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Wed Jul 20 2016, 22:12

Reaper minis snakemen.

The conversion is really easy.  At base you just cut off the head from the base of the neck. Put the torso on and then put the neck back. It's  really easy and the  reaper mini costs like 3 dollars.

Sorry. I forgot to mention you use a torso and arms from another kit. Any kit I should say.

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Hellraiser
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Wed Jul 20 2016, 23:25

This sounds like some sort of table troll.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Thu Jul 21 2016, 00:22

It's a pretty standard thing to see nowadays. It's hard for our army to deal with, for sure, but I don't think it's a 'douchebags only' sort of detachment.
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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Thu Jul 21 2016, 01:45

Pop the tanks with Grots/Scourges/Ravagers/Reavers, eat tasty insides with Venoms and Grots
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Thu Jul 21 2016, 08:35

I would recommend multiple 3 man units of bikes with caltrops. As many as you have the models for.
If you play on boards with a lot of scenery you can consider taking heat lances on a couple of the units as well. Not all of them because you will want to be using some as bait.

Another fun thing to do to mess with people that bring a lot of light armor transports, is to deep strike a disintegrator ravager behind his line of rhinos.
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Thu Jul 21 2016, 10:28

Everything said above its true if you tailor your list against your opponent, but if you're trying to make a list that can beat a Battle company Gladius in a tournament enviroment consider the following.

Statistically Dark Lance Ravagers are only worth it vs vehicles that cant jink and Necron ghost arcs (Becouse of the new FaQs). They are very bad against pretty much everything else. I would recommend dissintegrator ravagers. They can still hurt AV10-11 vehicles and can also deal with other common tournament opponents such as Tau or Eldar.

Scourges are completely overpriced, take up FA slots, Their resilience (T3 S4+) and weapon distribution means even a couple casualties will significantly drop their damage output and on top of that they have no duality whatsoever. If you face an army with no vehicles (pretty common in Eldar, Tau and SW+DA lists) you will start with a 120p deficit for each Scourge squad you field, and thats not fun.

If you want solid AV with DE, close combat is where is at. Sslyth, Grotesquerie grotesques, Reaver jetbikes, Talos (preferably CTC). Walkers will ruin your day but there arent really any meta walkers besides IKs, and I use Harlequins + Reavers to deal with those.

We have a big advantage against tournament Battlecompany Gladius lists, and is that they spam grav weaponry, and gravs suck against us, becouse of our standard armor value (or lack of it.)

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goofydk
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Thu Jul 21 2016, 14:57

I kinda like scourges but I do agree when you turn up with 2 squads of them and see the opponent only have 2 walkers I could use them on, was quite disappointing. But I do prefer them to DL ravagers, HWB are just more reliable, shorter range tho.. I do like dissie ravagers but only S5 can be a problem against a wall of Rhinos. We have a GK player that doesnt like those, AP2 shots Wink of course can DS one but I am not sure to take out a Rhino and even if it does, the ravager is pretty much screwed the following turn.
I havent had much luck with Reavers, I guess I just need more pratice with them.
Should try Reavers and some close combat units.

I love the CTC just bloody expensive but very fun Smile
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@miral
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Thu Jul 21 2016, 18:17

I had great experience with Grotesquerie and Reavers. I put in Urien and a Cronos to make the Jetbikes more resilient turn one. Two freinds of mine tried BC in different combinations and they had not much fun against this. Also as I back it up with two units of scatterbikes, who are just so darn effective against armour twelve-.

Also, do not forget to surround the rhino so that the Marines inside are instantly dead, too.

I also had great succes with two units of scourges and one unit of Scatterbikes with a Farseer, backed up by the CTC and a Cronos.
(Put a report of that tournament in Realspace Raids).
I was lucky though and got just the spells I needed: psychic shroud (every unit that has at least one model around 6 inch of your farseer gets shrouded) and two times twin linked (Eldar table and standard table).
I did win against a list with 5 AV 12/13 walker. I deployed on one flank, provided 5+ cover for the scourges by putting my Scatbikes up front with the Farseer in Scourges behind, resulting in 3+ cover. And I always TL at least one unit of scourges. Then I turned into the middle of the map with all units and killed a walker or two each turn.
Afraid my opponent did not have much fun and I won a Maelstrom+Killpoint mission.
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gvcolor
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Fri Jul 22 2016, 00:08

Played this two weeks back - DA Battlecompany with the 3 flier formation  Sad  by turn 3 with everything out on the table it was clear that I had not taken out enough vehicles, even though I was popping them each turn. Totally felt the pain of those 500 pts in free rhinos/razorbacks.

My scourges with 3 haywire 1 blaster did their job every turn until being killed 4th turn. I was looking at adding a Blaster to every five Kabalites on my venoms for additional punch. Ravagers with Dark Lances are a love/hate depending on the dice!

I also used a Razorwing with Disengrators and stock monoscythe missles - it was effective for a few turns until being shot down... it's tough, with so many vehicles it renders any splinter fire useless until the marines are out on the table.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Sat Jul 23 2016, 00:02

I play in a extremely competitive area (and I love it), everyone plays top tier tournament style lists.

Honestly DE can beat a "Basic" SM Battle Company, but adding other formations your going ot have a extreme bad time.

(We play with the new FAQs too other than Drop pod rules, also I take 2 CAD's not realspace.
We play at 2k point games

Lhamean + venom CAD 1
Lhamean + venom

5 Warriors + Venom
5 Warriors + Venom
5 Warriors + Raider: Dis can
5 Warriors + Raider: Dis can
5 Warriors + Raider: Dis can
5 Warriors + Raider: Dis can
5 Warriors + Raider: Dis can

5 Scourge x4 HWB
5 Scourge x4 HWB
3 Reavers: 1 w/ both, Heat lance + Caltrops
3 Reavers: 1 w/ both, Heat lance + Caltrops
3 Reavers: 1 w/ both, Heat lance + Caltrops
3 Reavers: 1 w/ both, Heat lance + Caltrops

CTC: x5 Heat Lances (You can do HWB too I just dont have luck with them for some reason sense they cost more also and do less for me I just say F'it)


Ive found CTC with some Anti Tank is amazing!

5man Warirors with a Raider FOR me is better than 1 Ravager, less shots, but having 1-2 Ravagers they always die turn 1-2, ALWAYS, against Drop pod marines, white scares and Las/Plam everywhere Ive found I need more smaller hitting units than larger harder hitting ones.

I went to the Extreme MSU, other than CTC, CTC is way too good to pass up, it wins me games.

Reavers I dont always use the HL, but time to time it really makes a big difference in 2 ways, Taking 1 free HP off or 1 free dead marine before I charge can make all the difference.
Honestly a couple of the people I play against try to kill them 1st.

Why Dis Cannon and not Dark Lances? B.c I never and I mean NEVER have luck with Dark Lances. They are terrible AT (other than Land Raiders) and they dont kill anything other thank Tau Battle Suits. Sense most armies I fight are T3,4,5 with very little higher, having more shots is better for more wounds.

I leave Scourges and Reavers as my AT and even CTC once a turn.

I alway talk to my opponents (But I went corsairs so I dont have any problems anymore) And I always asked them to not use the Land Speeder or Skyhammer formation when I played DE, honestly DE cant handle Demi-Company AND speeder Formation (think its StormBringer?), Ive tried many times, its just not worth fighting against.

If I play in a tournament or League I do change 1 thing, I take 1 Ravager with Lances just for Tau and Necrons. But this list is mostly for SM.

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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Sun Jul 24 2016, 00:43

This is actually why I've been trying reavers with heat lances. I just don't have enough games at 1850 or against heavy mech armies to decide whether the points are well spent or not.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Sun Jul 24 2016, 01:10

I always find that the reavers jink far too often to get my points back off snap shots.

They are "reasonably" costed, but it adds up over multiple squads.

Though I suppose the more you bring the less you have to jink them all and thus are more likely to get the points back. Depends on your meta if your opponent can force them all to jink.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Sun Jul 24 2016, 01:26

@The Red King wrote:
I always find that the reavers jink far too often to get my points back  off snap shots.

They are "reasonably" costed, but it adds up over multiple squads.

Though I suppose the more you bring the less you have to jink them all and thus are more likely to get the points back. Depends on your meta if your opponent can force them all to jink.

Yes they do Jink very much turns 1-2, but When you are punching holes in there line and give yourself good openings you wont have to jink in later turns.

I try to keep them in cover and completely out of LoS turn 1-2 and just work on positioning while the rest of the army makes a good wide safe spot.

You see a spot you can just destroy and you wreck it, make sure its a large hole with some terrain too, then you have the perfect spot to move fast units with 0 threat and even cover just for in case.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Sun Jul 24 2016, 03:48

I usually hold mine back as well, they really don't like getting charged first. Often I'll turbo them to the back of the table in cover to make my opponent feel surrounded, splits their fire before closing the jaws, but I never decide not to take the 3+ jink. I do run msu 3 man units so we may be talking about two almost entirely separate beasts here.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Sun Jul 24 2016, 09:40

Agree with Armishprn and Red King.

Reavers want to hide turn 1 or 2 and get into position for a turn 2 or 3 charge. Also turboing into cover behind or in the enemy lines is an excellent distraction as they threaten obj campers.

If you have MSU, threat saturation and cover it will be unlikely all reaver units will be forced to jink so guns can be effective.

Grotesquerie in raiders use almost identical tactics and so tag team with reavers like a boss.  Cool  Often ur opponent has to choose which to fire at and usually its the grots, leaveing the reavers free to reap merry hell. Twisted Evil

P.S. Loooove the list armishprn! Very Happy
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Alvaneron
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Sun Jul 24 2016, 12:30

i dont see the point in taking 5 man squads in raiders.
ok, a raider with dissi is good against SM, but the 5 poison shots in 24" are never used.

your tactic against such kind of raider/razorback spam looks like:
kill the transport with reaver or scourges and the units inside with warriors and the raider.

But if you get wihtin 24" for the warriors, it is highly likely that many units (including the embarked SM from the transport) are blasting your raider into stardust.

You need 2 squads + raiders to kill 5 embarked marines.

That said, you need to wreck the transport first.

and your general range for that is 18"-24" with HWB or HL.
Thats pretty risky ?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Sun Jul 24 2016, 13:17

@Alvaneron wrote:
i dont see the point in taking 5 man squads in raiders.
ok, a raider with dissi is good against SM, but the 5 poison shots in 24" are never used.

your tactic against such kind of raider/razorback spam looks like:
kill the transport with reaver or scourges and the units inside with warriors and the raider.

But if you get wihtin 24" for the warriors, it is highly likely that many units (including the embarked SM from the transport) are blasting your raider into stardust.

You need 2 squads + raiders to kill 5 embarked marines.

That said, you need to wreck the transport first.

and your general range for that is 18"-24" with HWB or HL.
Thats pretty risky ?


Most players with SM also have bikes too, DL cant ID them, so there is another reason for more shots, we play with the new Jink rules (All the faqs) I forgot to say that (Im already used to it lol) so for us a Jinking Vehicle renders the dudes inside pointless.

I also try not to get into close range, Rapid fire Plasma/bolt guns are more deadly than my extra 10 poison.

I also have a CTC as well, these guys are going to either pull the shots or kill multi units that includes a rhino a turn.

IMO SM arnt that hard for DE, its DA and IH out of the new Supplement that are cancer.


@Painjunky

Grots are amazing and work well too, I personally dont use them to much (even tho I have 30 of them) B.c I picked DE not for the Coven book and I LOVE the Pirate/Raider feel, the bikes etc...
EDIT: Hence why Im play Corsairs now Smile

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Archon Vitcus
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Mon Jul 25 2016, 10:06

Use Corpse thief Claw backed up by dark artisan.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino / Razorback spam problem   Tue Jul 26 2016, 04:08

@Archon Vitcus wrote:
Use Corpse thief Claw backed up by dark artisan.

Ya - otherwise he might regret bringing grav.

Anyway

I've been biting my tongue on this thread, but at this point it's 5 days old and no one has even asked what company he was facing.

But ya - A halfway competent space marine player can be pretty effective regardless (gw designed them that way), but giving him 550 points worth of free, twin-linked heavy weapon sporting, objective secured having, units that poison shooting can't touch and lances gain no advantage against?

Awesome

Well, as long as he doesn't know how to screen his transports (sorry reavers/lances), doesn't think to throw a 100 point dreadnought or two in to a free/objective secured drop pod (sorry grotesques), and forgets that he can field pretty much whatever else he wants since he's already got 20 Obj secured units for 880 points.  My personal favorite is 3 ravenwing formations inside the lion's blade (sorry dark eldar.*), but librarius conlaves, flyer formations, etc are all pretty hard for the dark kin to counter.  Worse still, pretty much every marine list I see contains a tiny CADs for FW units like fire raptors, contemtpor/mortis dreads, and sicarans which all pretty much eat flyers/skimmers for breakfast.

I honestly don't have any solutions in 7th - so feel free to ignore me, but do try to appreciate that marines have all the tools they need even inside the restrictions of the battle companies - it's more a matter of usage Sleep
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