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 Better than Wyches

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yukondal
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PostSubject: Better than Wyches   Mon Jul 18 2016, 04:10

What would you replace a unit of 9 wyches with a succubus for that would be better?

I'm thinking either 3 grots with something, 10 lahmeans, or 5 wyches/5 lhamaean.

1. What do you put with the grots, I'm thinking lhamaean for the extra damage and not having to accept challenges. Are grots as good as people say?

2. 10 lhamaeans would put out damage, but die faster than the wyches. Not a huge problem though because the wyches never put out damage and still run from losing combat.

3. 5 lhamaeans and 5 wyches. Pros: wyches make the unit and transport ob.sec. keeping it a great objective grabber. Also the wyches could possibly "tank" the combat wounds using dodge while the 5 lhamaeans put out the damage.

I'm leaning toward the grots, but the leadership 3 scares me a bit, and T5 gets doubled out a lot these days...

I just got back from a weekend tourney using 3 razorwing, 3 ravager, kabalites in venoms, and 1 unit of wyches with a succubus. The unit is cool and I had fun with them, but I'm ready to move on to something stronger. Had 3 loses, 2 wins, a tie, and a whole lot of fun. Smile

Let me know what you think. Thanks!!
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Better than Wyches   Mon Jul 18 2016, 04:38

Lhamaeans aren't ICs and can't join other units.

Grots plus succubus.
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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: Better than Wyches   Mon Jul 18 2016, 15:40

I didn't realize Lhamaeans couldn't join units. bummer..

So what is the goal with the grots. What types of units do you find they are best fighting against?

Also, I'm now thinking putting an archon with them. seems like a better choice in my mind. He is Leadership 10, and if the unit is fighting another unit with a character I will probably just reject the challenge either way.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Better than Wyches   Mon Jul 18 2016, 18:26

btfdeech wrote:

Also, I'm now thinking putting an archon with them. seems like a better choice in my mind. He is Leadership 10, and if the unit is fighting another unit with a character I will probably just reject the challenge either way.

I don't think an archon is a great idea. This is the setup I like to use:

1 Succubus w/Archite Glaive & Armour of Misery 110
3 grots w/Aberation & Agonizer upgrade 140

Put them in a naked raider, or raider with night shields and move them 30" towards your opponent's deployment zone in your first turn.

If possible, I like to use grots from the grotesquerie so that the unit becomes fearless turn 2. This provides a tough, fearless unit with a lot of wounds and a fearsome melee attack. The aberration chews through everything with armour 3+ or worse, and the Succubus is there to provide the AP2 if you run into termies or an armoured character. It also gives you 2 options for accepting challenges so that you don't have to decline any(You really don't want to be declining challenges with a 100 point succubus. That's basically what you're paying for.) Wink

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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: Better than Wyches   Mon Jul 18 2016, 18:52

That makes sense. They would become a super assault unit with that.

What do you use the Armour of Misery for? It looks like an easy way to make sure you sweeping advance.

The setup leaves me 60 points over, so I would have to drop my trueborn with blasters to warriors, but that would put me back at 6 ob.sec. units.

I don't have the expansion to the codex, or I would check out the Grotesquerie.
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: Better than Wyches   Mon Jul 18 2016, 19:19

Quote :
I don't have the expansion to the codex, or I would check out the Grotesquerie.

Here you go:

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Dark_Eldar(7E)#Formations

Just as it says. The formation consists of 2 units of Grots and either Urien or a normal Haemy. Note that the Haemy does NOT have to join the Grots! So you can stick him in another unit.

Quote :
What do you use the Armour of Misery for?

To weather overwatch. The funny thing is that a 4+ armour save is actually quite good since almost all shooty weapons are either AP 5 (high cadence of shots) or Ap 3/2/1 (low cadence of shots). Which means that you most likely will get your armour save against small arms fire and if the enemy shoots with low AP weapons those will have only one or maybe two shots per weapon, thus they can easily be tanked by the Grots (as long as they aren't ID).

The armour also gives a -2 LD malus. This stacks with the -1 LD from the Grots' formation for a -3 LD malus! Along with the insanely high Ini of the Succubus you will most likely catch the enemy unit in sweeping advance and either destroy it or lock it in combat if they have ATSKNF.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Better than Wyches   Mon Jul 18 2016, 21:21

btfdeech wrote:

What do you use the Armour of Misery for? It looks like an easy way to make sure you sweeping advance.

Causalis touched on several other benefits of AoM, but yeah, this is my main reason. It makes you far more likely to sweeping advance in those tight situations where you only won combat by 1 or 2 wounds against a non-fearless enemy.

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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: Better than Wyches   Mon Jul 18 2016, 21:27

What would you say is the primary target for the grot and succubus unit? Do you try to take on anything in the middle of the table? Do you like sweeping combat and soaking up more shots in the enemy turn so that the weaker stuff can live longer?

Also, one more option: have you (or anyone) tried something like 6 sslyth and 4 lhamaeans in a raider?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Better than Wyches   Mon Jul 18 2016, 22:07

Such a unit is a tool in your toolbox, and it's impossible for me to tell you all the places where you could apply it. I could sit all afternoon telling you uses for a hammer, and the first time you use it could be something I never mentioned. Same thing here.

It's an all-purpose CC unit. You use it for killing, tying up, delaying, scoring, area denial, or whatever other role you deem it worthy to fill. By design, it's capable against almost everything, from guardsmen and fire warriors to marines and terminators, to high toughness MCs. The only thing I'd keep it away from is gargantuan creatures and true deathstars that have a 3+ rerollable invuln or better, and fearless or pseudo-fearless tarpit units designed to simply tie you down all game, like 50 conscripts with a commissar.

You avoid the GMCs because you don't hurt them well, and you generally avoid units like those conscripts because they continue scoring with obsec while they tie you down without obsec. There are exceptions where you'd probably want to charge the conscripts, though. Not so many exceptions for charging the GMC, unless it's got ranged weapons you're just hoping to tie up for a turn while you sacrifice your 250 point unit, or you're trying to stop it from moving so that another more capable CC unit can charge it.

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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: Better than Wyches   Mon Jul 18 2016, 23:31

Ok thanks, that is super helpful. I'll give it a try.

I'm going to start figuring out some conversions, because yeah.. wyches are fun, but sad to watch die so fast.
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Hellraiser
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PostSubject: Re: Better than Wyches   Mon Jul 18 2016, 23:34

Anything worth the points, assuming you will be left with a raider and the succubi. When you have that, you think: hmm. What is going to keep my succubi alive in combat? Wyches usually have some survivability against low attack-high strength infantry with their 4+ inv. save.

Choices:

Incubi          AP attacks, 3+ arms save, high cost.
Grots           T5, extremely durable, high cost.
SSlyth          Lots of attacks, T5, poison, HQ slot

Compared with:

Wyches:       4+ dodge, cheap


Quote :
What would you say is the primary target for the grot and succubus unit? Do you try to take on anything in the middle of the table? Do you like sweeping combat and soaking up more shots in the enemy turn so that the weaker stuff can live longer?

Talking grots. You put them somewhere where there's lots of gunfire and the enemy will have to concentrate several units to fire on them to take them out. Letting other units advance. I run a unit of six who arrive from deep strike, they usually survive for two to three rounds, a lot in amassed fire. It takes str10 to insta-kill them. They also have a high damage output. Str5 poison gives them rerolls in combat against lower toughness creatures.

Grots with succubi: used offensively.
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