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 Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Mon Jul 18 2016, 03:42

Okay, so Warpflame Strike is like WWP, yeah? It only works when coming in from Reserve?

Loc Beacons don't specify that, I believe. (Unless they changed the wording.) They just benefit those arriving by Deep Strike.
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Hellraiser
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Mon Jul 18 2016, 10:29

I'd say facing an opponent who brings up deathstars and goes full out like that on you as a new player. Is an uttermost sign of madness!! Then, that's something we have mutually.

It appears in your post that your entire force was whiped out with you standing there shocked, arm twitching. Many players start this way. What you have to do now is to see what in your force worked for you and what you can change.
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Mon Jul 18 2016, 11:41

Quote :
It appears in your post that your entire force was whiped out with you standing there shocked, arm twitching. Many players start this way. What you have to do now is to see what in your force worked for you and what you can change.

I don't know about your local meta but where I am from people have common courtesy and don't just curbstomp new players with the cheesiest list they can muster. This hobby is niche enough already, we really need new players. It should be the goal of everyone who plays such a new player to make the first few games as enjoyable to him/her as possible. Once he has figured out how to play you can start to bring more competitive lists.

But from what you reported, your "buddy" doesn't seem like an emotionally developed guy. Being competitive is one thing, being a douche who deliberately smacks the s*it out of a new player is something else entirely. I too have very competitive guys at my local club but no one there would say "Oh hey, there is this guy who wants to get back into the game after aeons! Let's table him with an invisible deathstar. That'll make his first experience with the game fun!".

My humble advice as to what you could add to your army:

-at least two Venoms
-a Cronos (for Dark Artisan Formation)
-a Razorwing Jetfighter (or two), since it is the only thing we have as far as anti-air goes
-another 5 Scourges(?). 5 alone will DS in, kill a tank and will then be blown to bits. Having another 5 man squad would help with that.

Also, don't convert the Ravagers into Raiders! Magnetise them if you want but I would advice to actually build all three boxes as Ravagers and field all three every time. You need anti-tank weapons.
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tegs
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Mon Jul 18 2016, 17:21

I mostly ignored the deathstar and tried to focus on whittling away at the other player's UM army so I could safely claim objectives, but my Eldar ally focused on them. I suspect if we had coordinated stomping the UMs, we could have wiped the rest of the board, leaving the deathstar to claim one objective while we took the other 3.

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tegs
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Mon Jul 18 2016, 17:39

@Jimsolo wrote:
Okay, so Warpflame Strike is like WWP, yeah? It only works when coming in from Reserve?

Loc Beacons don't specify that, I believe.  (Unless they changed the wording.) They just benefit those arriving by Deep Strike.

Warpfire is an explosion around when unit "when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve."  The exact same phrase is used for teleport homers and locator beacons.  GOI doesn't cause a unit to arrive from deep strike, but to be placed on the board according to DS rules, so it doesn't trigger that phrase.

Of course, I don't know this offhand.  I looked it up because I assumed it was another case of buddy cheating.  :-p

There might be ICs or other rules I'm not familiar with that don't use that phrase, but I'd be surprised since it sounds like it was very carefully crafted that way.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Mon Jul 18 2016, 17:54

@tegs wrote:
It was in the 1st Draft.  Quote:
"Q: Does a unit always enter the game from Reserves when Deep Striking? The rules for Deep
Striking seem to imply that being the case, even when a unit is already on the table. As an example,
does a unit of Warp Talons that is using Gate of Infinity trigger its Warpflame Strike each time they
use the psychic power?
A: Not unless explicitly stated – in the example you use, Gate of Infinity has the unit arrive anywhere
on the board using the rules for Deep Strike. This doesn’t mean that it goes into Deep Strike
Reserve, or that you have to make a Reserve Roll for the unit and so on, and it means that you don’t
get to use the Warpflame Strike each time you do this."

Yes, what this means is there are essentially 2 wordings on rules that stop deep strike scatter:

1. Unit X does not scatter when arriving from deep strike reserve.
2. Unit X does not scatter when arriving by deep strike.

Essentially, if something is worded like example "1" above, it won't work with Gate of Infinity. If it is worded like example "2" above, it WILL work with Gate of Infinity. I know Baharroth and the Dark Angels guy both have rules worded like example "2", while webway portals have language like example "1". I'm pretty sure there are other rules available to space marines that use rules worded like example "2" as well, though I can't list them off for you.


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Hellraiser
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Mon Jul 18 2016, 22:34

@causalis wrote:
I don't know about your local meta but where I am from people have common courtesy and don't just curbstomp new players with the cheesiest list they can muster. This hobby is niche enough already, we really need new players. It should be the goal of everyone who plays such a new player to make the first few games as enjoyable to him/her as possible. Once he has figured out how to play you can start to bring more competitive lists.

Mean. My point is that sometimes new players face a tough army that annihilates them. And that is where you should give the game another shot and look at what can be improved.

As for my "reported buddy" Betraytheworld, he is the perfect example of this. I think it is weak to attack a new player who wants to contribute to DE community. Perhaps you should be saying this to him instead of me.

Please desist with the petty jibes - Cavash


Last edited by Hellraiser on Mon Jul 18 2016, 23:49; edited 1 time in total
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Mon Jul 18 2016, 23:04

Quote :
Mean. My point is that sometimes new players face a tough army that annihilates them. And that is where you should give the game another shot and look at what can be improved.

I'm sorry if I came on a bit too strong. It just irritates me greatly when I hear someone who is new to the game report how his opponent brought for example a Decurion Formation with Phantom spam etc. It just gives a bad first impression for the newbie that his opponents will be try-hard hyper competitive dudes.

The real fun (for a beginner) comes from the laid-back beer and pretzels games that create all sorts of funny situations ("You know what? My Archon on his last wound is gonna charge your Meganobs. Bring it, big guys!") etc. With growing confidence and experience one will automatically optimate his lists and seek tougher matches.

Quote :
As for my "reported buddy" Betraytheworld, he is the perfect example of this

Perfect example for what? Someone who curbstumps noobs or someone who got annihilated as a noob but stuck to the game? From what I've read from him he is a helpful guy even if he might formulate his opinions a bit... absolute. Wink
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Mon Jul 18 2016, 23:06

@tegs wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
Okay, so Warpflame Strike is like WWP, yeah? It only works when coming in from Reserve?

Loc Beacons don't specify that, I believe.  (Unless they changed the wording.) They just benefit those arriving by Deep Strike.

Warpfire is an explosion around when unit "when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve."  The exact same phrase is used for teleport homers and locator beacons.  GOI doesn't cause a unit to arrive from deep strike, but to be placed on the board according to DS rules, so it doesn't trigger that phrase.

Of course, I don't know this offhand.  I looked it up because I assumed it was another case of buddy cheating.  :-p

There might be ICs or other rules I'm not familiar with that don't use that phrase, but I'd be surprised since it sounds like it was very carefully crafted that way.

I am fairly certain Locator Beacons don't specify only operating only on units arriving from Reserve, they work on all forms of Deep Strike.
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Tue Jul 19 2016, 02:59

I think the distinction is between arriving from Deep Strike, or arriving using the rules for Deep Strike. GOI uses the latter, so it doesn't trigger effects which require Deep Strike.

So it doesn't matter if Locator Beacons, Teleport Homers, or IC rules work on all forms of Deep Strike, because GOI isn't a form of Deep Strike.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Tue Jul 19 2016, 03:14

No, the FAQ is pretty specific: the distinction is between arriving by Deep Strike ("using the rules for Deep Strike" is functionally identical) or arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

'Arriving by Deep Strike' and 'arriving using the rules for Deep Strike' are the same thing for the purposes of rules interactions.
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Tue Jul 19 2016, 03:45

@Jimsolo wrote:
No, the FAQ is pretty specific: the distinction is between arriving by Deep Strike ("using the rules for Deep Strike" is functionally identical) or arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

'Arriving by Deep Strike' and 'arriving using the rules for Deep Strike' are the same thing for the purposes of rules interactions.

That's not how I read it at all.

"Gate of Infinity has the unit arrive anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike. This doesn’t mean that it goes into Deep Strike Reserve, or that you have to make a Reserve Roll for the unit and so on, and it means that you don’t get to use the Warpflame Strike each time you do this."

That GOI uses the rules for DS rather than being DS is the reason why the following list of things don't apply to GOI that do apply to DS. Particularly since Warpflame Strike's trigger is "Immediately after entering via Deep Strike," and the FAQ says GOI doesn't do it.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Tue Jul 19 2016, 04:20

I believe Warpflame Strike is triggered by entering from Deep Strike Reserve--that's the key word. The FAQ spells out quite explicitly that this is why GOI doesn't trigger it.
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Tue Jul 19 2016, 22:10

I picked up a figure case and a Venom today, and checked the codes while I was there. Warpfire Strike does not use the word reserves.

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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Wed Jul 20 2016, 05:03

Welcome back. Since you've come back to the hobby recently, you're probably only catching up on how Dark Eldar fare. We're currently teetering between "really weak faction" and "mildly weak faction."

Sadly, most of our best tricks and strongest units seem to be newer 5th edition and later material - Venoms, Sslyth, Medusae etc, and on top of it all, they're all single box sets or blisters. Basically, it's not cheap buying into Dark Eldar.

@Rewind wrote:
I would make your 1st purchase 3 Venoms Smile

As if to compound my last point. We need a lot of vehicles to have a chance with regular Dark Eldar. For a quarter of the price you'd pay for a semi competitive Dark Eldar list (tonnes of skimmers, numerous infantry, maybe a bunch of Reaver Jetbikes), one could instead invest in a vastly more transportable and affordable, entirely different game engine, such as Malifaux.

I don't wish to dissuade you from playing Dark Eldar, but just remember you basically have to speak with your opponent first and agree to no cheese prior to playing, or else you can get blind sided by super heavies or gargantuan creatures, or even by recent formations as you found out with those Grey Knights. These games tend to be very one sided affairs, because Dark Eldar basically just die without being able to meaningfully interact with the enemy (ask BetraytheWorld how much poison fire you need to kill a Wraithknight, or how many Dark Lances are required to tackle an Imperial Knight).

@Grimcrimm wrote:
i wish you luck and if the guy playing tau has any semblance of humanity left he wont bring more than one riptide

^ this about sums up playing Dark Eldar against half the other factions in the game right now.

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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Wed Jul 20 2016, 16:43

@hydranixx wrote:
Welcome back.

Thanks!

I started out with Necrons, who I still have 750 points worth of, but I found them staggeringly repetitive and didn't find victories with them particularly satisfying. My DE army fell into my lap used for almost nothing, and I have a lot more variety in terms of what I can field. I find that every single casualty I inflict with DE feels like an accomplishment. I think I'll also learn much faster playing an army that brutally punishes mistakes rather than one which lets me get away with being sloppy.

I suspect games played with my non-cheese friend will be a lot more satisfying, and we'll eventually go back and stomp the cheese-fest hard because while he's been relying on cheese we'll have been learning how to play the game.

As an aside, I'm loving this community. You folks are awesome.
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Hellraiser
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PostSubject: Re: Noob dealing with Tau - limited 3E models   Wed Jul 20 2016, 17:16

@hydranixx wrote:
As if to compound my last point. We need a lot of vehicles to have a chance with regular Dark Eldar. For a quarter of the price you'd pay for a semi competitive Dark Eldar list (tonnes of skimmers, numerous infantry, maybe a bunch of Reaver Jetbikes), one could instead invest in a vastly more transportable and affordable, entirely different game engine, such as Malifaux.

I don't wish to dissuade you from playing Dark Eldar, but just remember you basically have to speak with your opponent first and agree to no cheese prior to playing, or else you can get blind sided by super heavies or gargantuan creatures, or even by recent formations as you found out with those Grey Knights. These games tend to be very one sided affairs, because Dark Eldar basically just die without being able to meaningfully interact with the enemy (ask BetraytheWorld how much poison fire you need to kill a Wraithknight, or how many Dark Lances are required to tackle an Imperial Knight).

You could always do it this way, Tegs, and have this mindset that "we are a weak faction and need to keep everything trimmed to perfection just to have a chance of getting a win from time to time".

You can also do your own list that works YOUR way. There are always lists that will overwhelm the list Hydranixx is suggestiong and beat-face her ten times a week anyway, even amongst the Dark Eldar.

Welcome to the city! pirat
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