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Umbralz
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PostSubject: Razorwings.   Wed Jul 13 2016, 11:09

I know a lot of "X" vs. "Y" have been going on as of late, but i'm very curious to see what the general consensus is on these guys. From what i've seen before it's been quite mixed, but for myself, I really am quite fond of them. I will preface this with the fact that in competitive settings I do tend to run eldar allies. My own inbuilt rule is to have 51% DE, so at least I can sleep at night. I almost always run them with stock missiles, splinter cannon and dark lances.

I feel the Death from the Skies actually HURT them even when fielding en masse, mostly due to the fact their primary goal is to bomb the ever living frak out of ground targets, and the -1 BS is devastating in terms of averages. The clunkiness of formations did NOT make up for it(in my opinion), although the extra mobility from the vector dancer-ish rules were nice. There's also the dogfight phase which is almost entirely based on a dice roll that can lose you an entire game turn 1. Thankfully the groups I play with tend to not use these rules.


Normally I compare the Razorwing to the Ravager in terms of role, which in pure anti-tank scenarios, is worse. 150 points to 125, with razorwings giving up a dark lance and turn 1 shots for missiles and (arguably) more survivability when used from aggressive positions.

Now in pure DE lists I can see why most of the time the tradeoff is not worth it, our poisoned shots on Kabalites and Venoms are actually pretty decent against any armor value and our main problem has always been AT, which pound for pound is reigned by the Ravager.

Another problem with them is that they do take the fast attack slot which can be reserved for Reavers, which are good units, if a bit hit or miss depending on the army you go up against.

However, when you have the reliance of a Wraithknight, Wraithguard/Fire Dragons to do the bulk of the heavy AT lifting, the supplemental shots from the Razorwings compliment quite well, along with the ability to spam missiles for some respectable turn 2 alpha. With an Autarch they also have decent enough reliability getting on the table, and I also lean towards reserve heavy lists.

I also feel the ability to position Razorwings aggressively compared to the Ravager is not to be overlooked at. It absolutely opens up more avenues of approach that you simply would not be able to garner with the latter.

Razorwings for me have always been points cost effective and done very well, but that could simply be local meta. They might falter in other ways as The Big D brings a whole new world to "tactics and strategy". The times I generally do not do well with Razorwings is vs. Tau and they Skyfire/Intercept them to smithereens.
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Hellraiser
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Wed Jul 13 2016, 16:30

You trade off one lance for missiles and cannons, keeping the points difference in mind.
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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Thu Jul 14 2016, 00:56

If you're using them for AT primarily, with the addition of a missile blast beta strike, may I ask why you feel the need to pay the points for the Splinter Cannon?

I love my Razorwings, just purchased a 3rd, but I use their missiles for anti-infantry and then the rest of their turns doing anti-tank. Which 100% precludes the purchase of the Splinter Cannon.

I agree entirely that being able to position them aggressively to get side armour/block charge lanes/etc is super duper useful, something that the humble Ravager cannot do.
And Break Turns from Death from the Skies, which we successfully pull off 83% of the time, makes them even better at it.

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Umbralz
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Thu Jul 14 2016, 02:33

I don't run them primarily for AT, as I use allies for that. Razorwings for me end up being used much like yours do. They almost feel like an "all purpose" unit as I don't exclusively use them for AT. I will say that in general in almost every game like 40k, "all purpose" units are generally terrible. I feel this is an exception. On turns after your missiles are gone, they still can do decent damage to TEQs and the like or finishing off pretty much any units in the games. Those last 3 marines? Need another hull point on a Knight? few bikes somewhere getting you down?


The ideal situation for when it comes in on turn 2 is being able to pop a rhino with dark lances, drop the missiles on top of the tac squad, then take some shots at whatever's left with a splinter cannon. I do find it to be a worthwhile purchase as even when hitting MCs.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Thu Jul 14 2016, 04:12

@Umbralz wrote:

The ideal situation for when it comes in on turn 2 is being able to pop a rhino with dark lances, drop the missiles on top of the tac squad, then take some shots at whatever's left with a splinter cannon.

This is actually illegal. Even though you resolve each weapon consecutively, they are considered to "go off" at the same time, against your primary target. If, in the course of going through your allowable weapons, your entire target unit dies, you stop. You don't continue to fire additional weapons, even at the prior occupants of the vehicle.

We're given permission to assault them after we destroy their vehicle, but never given permission to shoot them with the same unit. Even if you had split fire, you couldn't do it, because you have to nominate 2 VALID targets prior to split firing, and the tactical squad isn't a valid shooting target until after it disembarks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To the OP: If not using the death from the skies book, I view razorwings as a good anti-infantry flying unit that can also be effective vs. flying MCs. As such, if I were going to take one at all, I'd probably load it up with the splinter cannon, dissies, and the stock missiles. Drop a missile alpha strike upon arrival, then spend the rest of the game focusing flying MCs and infantry.

If using the death from the skies rules, I probably wouldn't bother taking them because, like you, I think Death from the skies was an overall nerf to their primary role. Further, we don't really do deep strike shenanigans very well, because we have no rules or formations that allow first turn deep strike using any decent units(ie, NOT wracks), or anything that we can really use to ensure arrivals of deep strikers, or anything we can trust to live for a turn with lots of our army not on the table...basically, we need some special rules to help us be good at deep strike, and we don't currently have them. So, despite having webway portals, we're one of the least deep strike capable armies in the game, at least on a mass deep strike level.

We could deep strike 1 or 2 key units or something, but in order to benefit from the "Air superiority rule", we basically have to outspend on air units on TOP of whatever other units we want benefitting from the reserves bonus, and NONE of them are on the table on turn 1, which increases the odds of simply losing to an alpha strike against our already fragile army. Just overall bad news, in my opinion.

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Umbralz
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Thu Jul 14 2016, 04:21

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Umbralz wrote:

The ideal situation for when it comes in on turn 2 is being able to pop a rhino with dark lances, drop the missiles on top of the tac squad, then take some shots at whatever's left with a splinter cannon.

This is actually illegal. Even though you resolve each weapon consecutively, they are considered to "go off" at the same time, against your primary target. If, in the course of going through your allowable weapons, your entire target unit dies, you stop. You don't continue to fire additional weapons, even at the prior occupants of the vehicle.

How does that work with the missiles in general?

Ex. I declare "I am firing my dark lances from my Razorwing at the Rhino." Rhino blows up. Can I still then choose NOT to fire my missiles? I was under the assumption only a few units were forced into this declaring all weapon systems before any dice are rolled/resolutions concluded. (Knights, off the top of my head.)
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Thu Jul 14 2016, 05:30

@Umbralz wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Umbralz wrote:

The ideal situation for when it comes in on turn 2 is being able to pop a rhino with dark lances, drop the missiles on top of the tac squad, then take some shots at whatever's left with a splinter cannon.

This is actually illegal. Even though you resolve each weapon consecutively, they are considered to "go off" at the same time, against your primary target. If, in the course of going through your allowable weapons, your entire target unit dies, you stop. You don't continue to fire additional weapons, even at the prior occupants of the vehicle.

How does that work with the missiles in general?

Ex. I declare "I am firing my dark lances from my Razorwing at the Rhino." Rhino blows up. Can I still then choose NOT to fire my missiles? I was under the assumption only a few units were forced into this declaring all weapon systems before any dice are rolled/resolutions concluded. (Knights, off the top of my head.)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you hadn't "rolled" for firing your missiles, you're considered to not have fired your missiles. That's a more complicated issue that only matters for one-shot weapons like missiles, so it's never come up for me that I can recall, and if it has, I would have just told my opponent he still has his missiles and moved on without wasting too much time on it.

The primary issue is that you don't get to continue firing weapons once your target is destroyed, even if those subsequent weapons were blast or something, and therefore would have had a chance to scatter into other things. You only fire weapons until your target is destroyed.

Hmm, I'm like 90% sure on this, but if anyone else could weigh in with quotes from the book, it'd be appreciated. Only a slight doubt because I know occasionally with vehicles, you still roll for penetrations even when enough hullpoints were done to wreck, just to check for explosions. Just wondering if there is something that clarifies precisely what happens to additional weapons when your target dies.

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Thu Jul 14 2016, 07:20

100% you cannot blow up a Rhino with the Dark Lances, then in the same shooting phase also fire missiles at the suddenly disembarked occupants of said ex-Rhino.

As for what happens to your missiles if you declared 2x Lances, 2x Missiles, fired the 2 lances, and your Rhino target blew up before you got to fire those missiles;

first on p.30


then on p.36



So it looks like if you first fired your Dark Lances, and destroyed your target, then the missiles are NOT expended Smile

But yeah, the section that says "you can now select it and shoot with it at the same target unit" totally precludes targeting the unit of suddenly disembarked Marines, which obviously are a separate unit.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Fri Jul 15 2016, 00:29

Thanks for the citations Laughingcarp! I appreciate it! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Fri Jul 15 2016, 03:28

Cheers!
You nerd-sniped me into it by bringing up a situation to which I didn't know the correct answer lol.
I'm known as a bit of a rules lawyer in my meta, because I enjoy playing the game as close to RAW as possible to even the playing field.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Fri Jul 15 2016, 12:49

Even if the target is not destroyed, if you see the result of the lance, you don't have to launch your missiles after.

That's why I usually choose 2 kind of missiles on my razorwing. I fire 2 missiles of a kind, see the result, and can after decide whether or not a fire another 2 of another kind, or finish with lances.
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Fri Jul 15 2016, 16:06

Umbralz, I have had great success with my Razorwings. If I bring them, I usually roll with 2 (points being 1500+) because i like that if one goes down I still have a flying threat on the board and throwing out up to 8 large blasts the turn they come in is nice.

I kit mine out exactly how you do. The Dark Lances for Vehicles or FMCs because they are superior to Dessies for both. I like the Cannon simply for FMC hunting. With the 2 Dark Lance shots, the added 6 Poison shots can really put the hurt on them. I cannot tell you how many Flyrants I have downed in in a volley of shooting with the added Cannon shots. (albeit sometimes with the help of falling out of the sky!) I like the stock missiles because theyre free and for the AP 5 which comes up more often than I thought it would. You wound on 2's most of the and Str. 6 can clip other vehicles with its large blast and maybe nab a HP off of a Rhino or something.

Overall i like Razorwings, and think they do everything pretty good. 2 Lance shots are not the best AT but gives you something against fliers or ground tanks. 150 points is not a lot of investment for something that can come in and pick anything on the field and have an impact on it. I do think running in pairs is the way to go.
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Hellraiser
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Sat Jul 16 2016, 00:29

Considering the fact that one well-positioned Razorwing can missile enemy units within 48" sure makes for aggressive use. They are like predators, hunting for groundly units to destroy. They also have a sharp appearance.
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Umbralz
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Sat Jul 16 2016, 11:26

@SCP Yeeman wrote:
Overall i like Razorwings, and think they do everything pretty good.  2 Lance shots are not the best AT but gives you something against fliers or ground tanks. 150 points is not a lot of investment for something that can come in and pick anything on the field and have an impact on it.  I do think running in pairs is the way to go.

This is exactly how I feel about them. I would also have to agree that having a single razorwing also feels extremely underwhelming, also drawing the similarity to Ravagers in my opinion. Both benefit greatly from numbers to help smooth out averages and not just whiff a turn, then get penned and blow up.
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Tue Jul 19 2016, 16:10

I have experience running 3 Razorwings in the Air Superiority Detachment from the the Death from the Skies book, and I love them.

I would say my primary use for them is to blow up back-line infantry. I take Monoscythe Missiles, the Splinter Cannon, and the Dark Lances. With the setup the best targets are skimmers (and light vehicles), jetbikes, and infantry. 2 rockets fired at light vehicles with 2 DLances, and the cannon at infantry and bikes. Their role is to either unseat objective secured units at the back/middle of the table, or just help open up lanes for the rest of the army to advance.

If you use the Death from the Skies book, then putting 3 razorwings in the ignores cover flight pattern is amazing against light skimmers and jetbikes. Plus the flyers mobility in being able to get where other units cannot is a great help. And with brake turns, you can keep them firing almost every turn.

If I jink with them, often I'll just fly off the table and come back on next turn ready to go.

Whenever I've fired all 3 at other fliers or heavy tanks I have been greatly disappointed. And if you can't use the Splinter Cannon or the rockets, then it feels like you are wasting shots. That's why I try to leave the Razorwing's anti-tank duties for last. (if I can help it).

It will all come down to what you need in a certain game, but I really like the extra reach I get with the razorwings. And they look great and are just fun to use. Also using the Air Superiority Detachment frees up your fast attack slots.
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Tue Jul 19 2016, 21:56

btfdeech wrote:

Whenever I've fired all 3 at other fliers or heavy tanks I have been greatly disappointed. And if you can't use the Splinter Cannon or the rockets, then it feels like you are wasting shots. That's why I try to leave the Razorwing's anti-tank duties for last. (if I can help it).

That's my exp with razorwings in general.
Lances do jack and confuse its role, wasting shots. Keep em cheap and dedicated IMO. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Wed Jul 20 2016, 04:03

btfdeech wrote:
With the setup the best targets are skimmers (and light vehicles), jetbikes, and infantry. 2 rockets fired at light vehicles with 2 DLances, and the cannon at infantry and bikes.

I agree. S6 missiles are plenty to work with against light vehicles, and especially against skimmers. You can threaten them with the blasts without necessarily targeting them. If I recall correctly, they can't Jink against you either since they're not the primary target.

The latest FAQs might have changed this, though this makes even more decisions for your opponent to make, and forcing a Skimmer to jink, in addition to nuking your primary target, is hardly a bad outcome anyway.

I remember multiple instances where I've opened up 4 missiles at a random squad of Tactical or Devastator marines, only to one-shot entire land speeder squadrons with the collateral damage from those blasts.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwings.   Sat Jul 23 2016, 17:23

All those valorations are because you all use Eldar anti-air to destroy enemy flyers, isn't it? Because without those dark lances I wouldn't be able to deal with almost any enemy flyer, and flying MC can be killed by my kabalites anyway, so...
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