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Grumpy eldar
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PostSubject: Cc options   Sat Jul 09 2016, 20:40

Read all this with interest. Am a player coming back to the fold of 40k. If wyches are not a viable cc option, then what is? Am building a force around 40 DE warriors so I can soak up some damage.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sat Jul 09 2016, 21:32

Incubi, Grotesques, Taloi, and Reavers are all good in CC.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sat Jul 09 2016, 21:58

Personally I would shorten that to Grots and Taloi - and add in Succubi.
I will agree Incubi are "good" but I still can't justify their cost without a grenade option when compared to what Grots bring to the table.

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Grumpy eldar
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sat Jul 09 2016, 22:34

So really would a coven force be best?
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sat Jul 09 2016, 23:03

No. Just add the grotesquerie to your army.

I prefer the grotesquerie, Incubbi and Reaver.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 00:10

If you don't want to go Covens then a Court of the Archon is similarly capable as Grotesques if you go half and half Lhamaeans and Sslyth.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 02:24

I'd say the Court is, at best, a poor man's Grotesque squad.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 05:03

Jimsolo wrote:
I'd say the Court is, at best, a poor man's Grotesque squad.
If you include the character tax with the Grotesques, the Court will actually outperform Grotesques for the same points. With the benefits of a Grotesquerie, I would say that is a better option, but the Court is pretty severely under-rated.

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Grumpy eldar
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 08:54

Thanks all. So happy to find fiendish minds on this forum Smile. Read a lot about wyches and how there are awful. But reading codex thoroughly, and they do have plasma Grenades and also dodge special rule 4+ save after until assualt. If anything wouldn't that make them a good unit to bog a stronger unit down
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 09:06

Grumpy eldar wrote:
Thanks all. So happy to find fiendish minds on this forum Smile. Read a lot about wyches and how there are awful. But reading codex thoroughly, and they do have plasma Grenades and also dodge special rule 4+ save after until assualt. If anything wouldn't that make them a good unit to bog a stronger unit down

Potentially yes but T3 means they're going to be making a lot of saves and 4++ only goes so far. Plus, they're not Fearless until Turn 5 so losing a combat can be disastrous for them. Sadly, tarpit is just about the best option for using Wyches but that doesn't mean it's a good option!

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Grumpy eldar
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 09:18

Too true. Damn I really thought I had found a way to make them usfuel before anyone else (joking). Looking at it in every direction I agree with all that they are not fit for any purpose apart from being a beautiful model.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 10:03

Reavers and Coven formations i.e.  Grotesquerie, Corpsethief, Dark Artisan.
Regular Grots, Slyth and incubi have their roles too.

Wyches are mediocre tarpit units.
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Ultimatejet
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 11:17

Grotesques are good with a melee Archon or a Succubus, and the Grotesquerie formation is gold but they will ALWAYS require a IC to join them.

Incubi miss the granades and suffer overwatch and they are good also with an Haemonculus (they get fnp in 2nd Turn e Furious Charge in 3rd)

Hellions/BloodBrides/Wyches are useless

Lhamians find some use (poisoned 2+), same for Sslyth

Talos are great

In my opinion the main problem is the cost. Units decent in melee have high points value, due to the near-mandatory transport option. Around 200 points for a 10-10-10 open topped profile...
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 14:07

I love how Incubi are cited as problematic without grenades when literally every other assault unit labelled as awesome don't have them either. Contrary to the internets opinions - not all assaults happen through cover and overwatch is a mediocre attack in nearly all cases.

Incubi on the charge kill a WS4/T4 model with no invuln per incubi every time on average. Per point they are one of the best assault troops we have.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 15:24

As a point of order, the grotesquerie IC is not required to join the grots, and can be put elsewhere if it would be beneficial.
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megatrons2nd
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 15:55

Massaen wrote:
I love how Incubi are cited as problematic without grenades when literally every other assault unit labelled as awesome don't have them either. Contrary to the internets opinions - not all assaults happen through cover and overwatch is a mediocre attack in nearly all cases.

Incubi on the charge kill a WS4/T4 model with no invuln per incubi every time on average. Per point they are one of the best assault troops we have.

What units are those? Every Marine unit has them, except terminators, which use to get them from a Land Raider, and still might. They have no ranged weapons, which other great assault unit do.

They may be the best we have for the cost, but it isn't a great cost when compared elsewhere, and the fact that we are comparing them, internally, to other already over priced units in our current codex for everything else.

Overwatch is great from template weapon units, or units with a lot of ranged attacks, or Tau. If your opponent is letting you get them in range of assault, and doesn't move to cover, than

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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 17:32

I meant our own assault units like grots - none of our assault units that are considered great have grenades.

As for overwatch - how many templates does a typical unit have to overwatch with - 1? 2 maybe? It's hardly the norm for units to pack many. D3 hits and typically less than ap3 means incubi get their save.

Even high volume firepower is not common from a single unit and even tau using supporting fire, when it's only BS1 it's hardly earth shattering - especially for grots with high T and W or incubi with 3+ saves. Some units are devestating with overwatch but the vast majority are lucky to get a kill or 2

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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 21:15

I lost almost an entire unit to overwatch from Tau. I assaulted a broadside squad, I didn't realize that the Battlesuit squad nearby was packing 2 separate flamer weapons each. The 6D3 and the 3 twin linked plasma rifles at BS 2 did a number on them.

Assaulting Ork Boys is suicide as well 10 guys w 2 -3 shots is murder on them as well.

Yes overwatch is not so bad, it is the overwatch plus 2-4 rounds of shooting beforehand that is the killer.

I've never used Grots, as I find the Coven units to be ugly, so can't really comment much on them.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Sun Jul 10 2016, 21:49

Yeah, units with multiple flamers are spread across many armies.  Sisters of Battle devastator-equivalents, Salamanders, Tau, and Orks all have units that can field 3+ template weapons in units that are still good enough to be competitive. (For their army, that is.)
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Mon Jul 11 2016, 06:07

Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, units with multiple flamers are spread across many armies.  Sisters of Battle devastator-equivalents, Salamanders, Tau, and Orks all have units that can field 3+ template weapons in units that are still good enough to be competitive. (For their army, that is.)

Yes they exist but how often do you see them?

I have sisters myself and you need melta before you need flamers. Salamanders are a much less used marine variant then say white scars or iron hands. Tau I will give you are common but again, I always see flamers as an add on weapon rather than the primary weapon payload. Ork burner boys are terrible most of the time - in fact I cant think of the last time I saw them at any event!

Anyway - Incubi are a solid assault unit for sure against most infantry opponents - and perhaps that is their Achilles heel - they are too specialised.

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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Mon Jul 11 2016, 15:25

I'm at the point where a unit of 4 Grots with a Succubus leading, packed in a Raider to flat-out into the enemy grill turn 1 is simply auto-include for any list I build. I pack that in before I even decide on the flavor of the week for my build (I try something different every game if possible).

Because the stock model is simply not worth it I'm taking my time building and converting a ton of them so I can surprise my play-group with an army maxing out Grots - hopefully by end of the summer. If you ask me, they're the best unit in our Codex.


edit: I like Incubi a lot, and they seem durable, but Grots seem to outperform them every time - either in my perception alone, or even in actual application (when they're both on the table at once). I've never done any legit math on the two - that'd be interesting to see.

I've never fielded Slyth spam with the intention of melee. I rely upon their Carbines. I'm suddenly curious about their role as assault fodder. Might roll that this week as an experiment. I'm already planning to put 10 Lhamean in a Raider to test them. Court for the win!
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Mon Jul 11 2016, 19:09

Thor665 wrote:
Personally I would shorten that to Grots and Taloi - and add in Succubi.
I will agree Incubi are "good" but I still can't justify their cost without a grenade option when compared to what Grots bring to the table.

This basically mirrors my personal feelings on the topic.

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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Mon Jul 11 2016, 23:12

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Thor665 wrote:
Personally I would shorten that to Grots and Taloi - and add in Succubi.
I will agree Incubi are "good" but I still can't justify their cost without a grenade option when compared to what Grots bring to the table.

This basically mirrors my personal feelings on the topic.

Pretty succinct summation.
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Grumpy eldar
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PostSubject: Re: Cc options   Tue Oct 04 2016, 09:26

Oh my slaves. Have built and painted enough troops to have three games so far, I have found that our warriors are awesome. Playing harlequins and in one round of shooting took out his death jester
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