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Nightgaunt
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PostSubject: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Thu Jul 07 2016, 02:48

Hi everyone. I last played 40k in 3rd edition so I figure I'm functionally as newbie as you can get. Dark Eldar are at the top of my list for a first army. I know they're....tricky, but honestly the thing that would stop me collecting them first is not being able to paint them well enough (I'm equally new to painting and they have some gorgeous models). If I don't I'll start with Craftworld Eldar, eventually going for the whole Seelie/Unseelie Fae feel. Anyway, I've been lurking for a few weeks reading articles and posts to help get an idea of what direction to go with an army. I've read a lot of great info on many subjects but still have a few random items I'd like advice for.

1. Is the Realspace Raiders detachment worth it over a Combined Arms one? It seems like half the fun stuff is in Fast Attack anyway, but I don't know how big a deal losing Objective Secured is. Honestly, I like variety, and just taking two warrior squads with transports to fill out my troops obligation seems just fine to me. I would say a warrior and a wych squad for variety, but I've read about all the shortcomings of wyches Sad

2. Are Covenite Coterie detachments ever recommended? I notice in many army lists detachments from the Coven book are used like Grotesqueries and Dark Artisans, and looking at the bonuses I can certainly understand why, but I haven't seen many full on Coven lists in my searching.

3. How good are Webway Portals in this edition? They seem really fun, but again, I have no tabletop experience. Are there any particular units that are considered best to use with these? Also more of a rules question which I probably missed in the rulebook, if I take a squad of Talos Engines can they be joined by an independent character with a WWP? Also, I know allies can't start mounted in another army's transport as of the latest FAQ, but can an HQ with a WWP join an allied squad and port them in?

4. Is there an ideal unit size for units with Rampage? Specifically Grotesques and Klaivex-led Incubi? I have no idea how to play the numbers in that regard.

5. Wracks. I get the impression they aren't well loved, though I'm not sure what's wrong with them. If I took any they'd come from a Coven detachment I'm sure. Is the acothyst or any of their weapon options worth the points? They seem pricey. Any size or transport recommendations for them?

6. Beastmasters and Courts of the Archon. There seem to be so many ways to build these units that I have no idea where to go with them. Are either recommended, and are there any commonly preferred combos with either unit? I know of the single Lhamea as an HQ trick (can she be the warlord?). I have also never seen an Ur-Ghoul in a list before...are they any good?

7. How friendly is the game to conversions these days? I love Grotesques but hate their models. I'm looking through the range for something I like better, maybe Ogres or something, I don't know.

I appreciate any input, that post got a little longer than I intended.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Thu Jul 07 2016, 03:28

Welcome to The Dark City. Going to answer your questions point by point:

1. No. Objective secured is a very important rule, and it is USUALLY not worth losing it. Occasionally the RSR detachment might be useful in a situation where you're taking an ajoining CAD and/or other formations that gets you plenty of Obsec.

2. Not usually. The problem with them is that wracks still don't get obsec in the covenite coterie detachment, and without obsec there is something else that does every job better than wracks. And ALL of those something elses are available in formations that give you extra special rules and benefits, while being a cheaper, more focused option.

3. Webway portals are decent in this edition. There are some interesting things you can do with them involving allies. But they're expensive. And as such, they don't really vibe well internally for us. None of our units can really make the most of a precision deep strike. A pity, really. The best use for WWPs is generally when using Eldar Allies with stronger, short range weapons like fire dragons or D-scythe wraithguard.

4. I like to keep units with rampage at 4 models or less AFTER accounting for attaching any characters to them. This virtually guarantees that they will get their extra attacks vs. just about ANY unit that's at full/starting strength.

5. Wracks aren't BAD by themselves. The issue is that since they aren't troops and can never get objective secured, you have to compare them to units in slots OTHER than troops slots to decide if they're any good. And when you compare wracks to other options in ELITE, FAST ATTACK, HEAVY, etc, there is basically always something else that does every job better than wracks.

6. Most people run a single Lhamean as their HQ in order to save points to spam on more venoms and ravagers. Aside from that, you can certainly use both beastmasters and courts of the archon in larger roles, but they're sort of "higher level" units, both because they're extremely expensive money-wise, and because a good level of familiarity with how the rest of the army works should be had in order to most effectively employ them.

7. The game is super-friendly to conversions. Most major tournaments allow conversions as long as it's on the same size base as the original, and very close to the same size/shape.

I hope I've helped, and welcome back! Very Happy

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Thu Jul 07 2016, 03:44

@Nightgaunt wrote:
1. Is the Realspace Raiders detachment worth it over a Combined Arms one? It seems like half the fun stuff is in Fast Attack anyway, but I don't know how big a deal losing Objective Secured is. Honestly, I like variety, and just taking two warrior squads with transports to fill out my troops obligation seems just fine to me. I would say a warrior and a wych squad for variety, but I've read about all the shortcomings of wyches Sad

Losing ObSec isn't a big deal, until it is. (Unfortunately, the weight ObSec will carry for you is going to vary based on local meta, event, and playstyle.)

Generally speaking, if you aren't going to take more than 3 Fast Attack choices (or aren't going to take more than 3 per HQ and 2 troops), go with the CAD. The benefits of the RRD aren't worth dropping ObSec; the only time it might be worth it is if you need the extra FA slots.

Quote :
2. Are Covenite Coterie detachments ever recommended? I notice in many army lists detachments from the Coven book are used like Grotesqueries and Dark Artisans, and looking at the bonuses I can certainly understand why, but I haven't seen many full on Coven lists in my searching.

I run all Covens armies (or mostly Covens armies) all the time; I just don't use the Coterie detachment. You're almost always going to be better off mixing and matching formations.

Quote :
3. How good are Webway Portals in this edition? They seem really fun, but again, I have no tabletop experience. Are there any particular units that are considered best to use with these? Also more of a rules question which I probably missed in the rulebook, if I take a squad of Talos Engines can they be joined by an independent character with a WWP? Also, I know allies can't start mounted in another army's transport as of the latest FAQ, but can an HQ with a WWP join an allied squad and port them in?

They are great! I highly recommend them, but you need to have a plan in mind when using them (when you'll Deep Strike and when you'll just eat the 35 points and deploy on the table, f'rex). Grot bombs (5+ grotesques) are a good use of them, as is the Dark Artisan formation. You cannot attach an IC to Monstrous Creatures, unfortunately, with the exception of the Dark Artisan formation. Fortunately, allied infantry squads can absolutely be joined by a WWP bearer and arrive that way.

Quote :
4. Is there an ideal unit size for units with Rampage? Specifically Grotesques and Klaivex-led Incubi? I have no idea how to play the numbers in that regard.

I run my grots in 4 man squads (if in a raider) or 10 man squads (if arriving by WWP). I run my Incubi in as large a squad as will fit in their transport (5, 9, or 10, depending on Venom, Raider, or Raider with IC). Rampage is frosting: it's tasty when you get it, but by no means is it required to make the cake good.

Quote :
5. Wracks. I get the impression they aren't well loved, though I'm not sure what's wrong with them. If I took any they'd come from a Coven detachment I'm sure. Is the acothyst or any of their weapon options worth the points? They seem pricey. Any size or transport recommendations for them?

Wracks blow chunks in this edition. The change to Poison in this edition means they rarely get rerolls to wound, and the change in our codex to prevent them from being troops both hurt them. Their weapons also changed for the worse. The only way I recommend taking them is in a Scalpel Squadron. If you do so, you can add a Liquifier Gun (highly not recommended unless your local meta really supports it) or an Ossefactor if you like, but they aren't must-buys.

Quote :
6. Beastmasters and Courts of the Archon. There seem to be so many ways to build these units that I have no idea where to go with them. Are either recommended, and are there any commonly preferred combos with either unit? I know of the single Lhamea as an HQ trick (can she be the warlord?). I have also never seen an Ur-Ghoul in a list before...are they any good?

Beastmasters aren't that great in this edition, although some folks have had some middling success with them. Courts of the Archon can vary wildly. Usually when I see them fielded they are all lhamaeans, medusae, or sslyth, without any mixing and matching. I've run unbound lists with 20-40 one man Ur-Ghul units to hilarious effect before, but never in a serious game.

Quote :
7. How friendly is the game to conversions these days? I love Grotesques but hate their models. I'm looking through the range for something I like better, maybe Ogres or something, I don't know.

Incredibly. Especially when it comes to grotesques and taloi. Old school rat ogres are the preferred option (WHFB Skaven), followed by Crypt Horrors (WHFB Tomb Kings). I've also seen WHFB Ogres, Confrontation Wulfen, and Dreamblade miniatures used to make Grotesques. Of course, if you trawl ebay you can occasionally find the 3rd edition grotesques for significantly cheaper than the standard version.

Quote :
I appreciate any input, that post got a little longer than I intended.

Happy to assist, amigo! Hope I was able to be of some help.
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Nightgaunt
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PostSubject: Re: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Tue Jul 12 2016, 04:03

The advice is much appreciated Smile I did think of another few questions if you'll indulge me. First, do you recommend Warriors in Raiders or Venoms to start with, or a mix, and how best to equip such squads? Do you use the transports just to get them to the right area, or is leaving them in the transport and using it like a gunboat a valid option?

Secondly, just curious but what makes Hellions so bad? They seem almost as loathed as wyches from what I can tell.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Tue Jul 12 2016, 04:36

Venoms, no question.

And hellions just aren't GOOD. They don't do anything particularly well. Every role you could think of for them, something else does better.

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PostSubject: Re: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Tue Jul 12 2016, 04:52

Venoms, definitely.

Hellions don't hit particularly hard, don't shoot particularly well, and aren't particularly resilient. Their size and unit type making getting cover saves difficult at best, and they lack any special options or characters to enhance them.
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PostSubject: Re: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Tue Jul 12 2016, 05:24

Much obliged Smile Should I tool up my warriors with anything if they're riding Venoms, or just leave them with splinter rifles? Is there an ideal number of such squads to take? Ducking over to the army list forum I saw a few lists that use all six troops slots for venoms.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Tue Jul 12 2016, 06:24

I wouldn't give them any upgrades. In the fairly rare circumstance that you have 15 points with nothing helpful to spend it on after you've completely made the rest of your list, throwing a single blaster on a unit of warriors is fine.

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PostSubject: Re: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Tue Jul 12 2016, 06:26

Anything from two on up.  Depends on the build you want.  If you want Venomspam (prior to the FAQ our most competitive option, and probavly still is) then you'll probavly want 3-5.  If you take any upgrades to venom-riding warriors, it'd be a blaster (and that's it). Recommendations on whether to take the blaster or not, and your mileage, may vary. I pesonally take them.
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PostSubject: Re: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Tue Jul 12 2016, 12:32

I tend to run them in 5 man squads with a Blaster. It can be quite handy but not guaranteed to do work all the time.
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PostSubject: Re: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Mon Jul 18 2016, 05:08

Thanks again, all. I have to ask, since it's an option, would you ever consider running a footslogging unit of 20 warriors?
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PostSubject: Re: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Mon Jul 18 2016, 07:13

Only with a WWP HQ.
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PostSubject: Re: 40k/Dark Eldar newbie   Mon Jul 18 2016, 14:24

No, they're just a big, easy to kill target that is unlikely to do much for you.
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