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Ultra Magnus
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Fri Jul 08 2016, 23:22

@ Count Adhemar

Happy to take up the mantle of Wych defense! Smile

Special Weapons

1. There weapons are not rubbish if you used them against a light infantry horde opponent which I argue is their dedicated purpose. You are giving a multi-attack model a special rule that improves its ability to land wounds and THEN remove the armor save of their opponent which alone improves your output by 16%-33%. For 5 pts. Seems like a fair deal to me. Against the same target, a S4 AP4 blast template will remove multiple models as well with no armor save before combat is joined. If I only played against space marine bike armies I agree with you I wouldn't take them. But then again I wouldn't be taking Wyches to fight them either.

Combat Drugs

Everyone always complains about the Wych stat line and pretends that combat drugs don't exist. Even if you throw out the two results nobody likes (which I still think are valuable against any opponent without ATSKNF - aka light infantry) then 66% of the time their stat line is being boosted in a very significant way with material impact to either their damage output or survivability.

Overwatch

I agree that I would love to see the Wyches invulnerable save count against overwatch but really how big of a deal is it? Dark Angels aside here, is the reality:

1. 10 Wyches charge a unit of 10 Tactical Marines
2. Wych splinter pistols kill 1 Marine
3. 9 Marines fire overwatch kill 1-2 Wyches (variable due to Wych Toughness and FNP yes/no)

Not the end of the world and if they were shooting into a light infantry squad, their splinter pistols would have taken out far more on the charge in due to AP5.

So what happens then with our "can't kill anything models"? With PFP and Combat Drugs there a quite a few variables to math hammer but they will kill that squad more often than not and do far worse to those squads they were designed to go after.

Even if all they do is tarpit them, then guess what, great! The average marine shooting unit is loaded with special/heavy weapons that would make a mockery of our venom spam shooting lists anyway so all told any turn that I tie them up flailing away with their base 1A CC weapon is a win for me.

Fundamentally the problem that folks have with Wyches is that they see the codex only through the lens of playing against 3+ save marines and nothing else. If that is your meta then yes I might spend my points in some other way but as I said earlier, these guys are just fine for doing the role they were set out for.

It is more accurate to say "I hate light assault armies" or "Wyches are sub optimal in a competitive environment" but they don't outright suck.

That is Hellions. Smile



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Ultra Magnus
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Fri Jul 08 2016, 23:27

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Technically the wyches will live longer if they could actually get to CC. Which brings us right back to the T3 with a 6+ issue.

I would argue they get into CC better than any other unit short of a Land Raider full of Terminators.

You have a fast assault transport that can Deepstrike or turboboost 24" with aethersails. Yes its cardboard but it can also have a 3+ cover save. Is it indestructible? No. Is it your opponents #1 shooting priority? No. Can you use LOS terrain? Yes.

Try this. Deep strike your Raider. Put it parallel to your opponents back board edge. Disembark Wyches behind it. Now you have LOS terrain, its won't kill them all when it pops, and it can sit and jinx away in place until you move it and they are ready to charge.

I am not saying it is easy, auto win, etc. but the broad brush arguments that are the fuel of the internet lead to lazy thinking.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Fri Jul 08 2016, 23:32

What benefit does getting out and netting myself a 5+ cover save grant me that staying in while it goes down didn't?

I'll say it again T3 6+ armour and capable of being swept. Not a good combination.

I think you've miss-identified me as someone who thinks wyches are unplayable, on the contrary I just think your dead wrong in terms of how to do it. They should be the dedicated crew for the obsec venoms you buy them for. Also I think you are wrong about hellions. access to HnR makes them more valuable wound pools then wyches.  price is a little steep tho.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Fri Jul 08 2016, 23:34

@amorrowlyday wrote:
What benefit does getting out and netting myself a 5+ cover save grant me that staying in while it goes down didn't?

I'll say it again T3 6+ armour and capable of being swept. Not a good combination.

I think you've miss-identified me as someone who thinks wyches are unplayable, on the contrary I just think your dead wrong in terms of how to do it. They should be the dedicated crew for the obsec venoms you buy them for. Also I think you are wrong about hellions. access to HnR makes them more valuable wound pools then wyches.  price is a little steep tho.

Also why do newish people always come in here running around telling us we're wrong about wyches and about 3 weeks latter give up their zeal?
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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Fri Jul 08 2016, 23:37

Quote :
Also why do newish people always come in here running around telling us we're wrong about wyches and about 3 weeks latter give up their zeal?

Dunno. I am not saying that you are wrong - the shortcomings of the Wyches are apparent.

Quote :
Also I think you are wrong about hellions. access to HnR makes them more valuable wound pools then wyches. price is a little steep tho.

I really like the models and I can imagine that a squad of 10 will pull their weight against my buddy's Ork army.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Fri Jul 08 2016, 23:55

As well as anything else does I suppose. point for point the usual CC choices like grotesques just get bogged down and don't trade down as well as they do against meq/teq/geq. Boyz and nobs are really different in CC from anything else you'll likely face because of how their stats interact with ours.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Fri Jul 08 2016, 23:56

@Ultra Magnus wrote:
Special Weapons

1. There weapons are not rubbish if you used them against a light infantry horde opponent which I argue is their dedicated purpose. You are giving a multi-attack model a special rule that improves its ability to land wounds and THEN remove the armor save of their opponent which alone improves your output by 16%-33%. For 5 pts. Seems like a fair deal to me. Against the same target, a S4 AP4 blast template will remove multiple models as well with no armor save before combat is joined. If I only played against space marine bike armies I agree with you I wouldn't take them. But then again I wouldn't be taking Wyches to fight them either.

The problem, much as it is for combat drugs, is that you're upgrading the combat potential from Harmless to Mostly Harmless. Until Wyches actually have the ability to kill stuff then paying more points to make them suck slightly less just isn't worth it.

Quote :
Combat Drugs

Everyone always complains about the Wych stat line and pretends that combat drugs don't exist. Even if you throw out the two results nobody likes (which I still think are valuable against any opponent without ATSKNF - aka light infantry) then 66% of the time their stat line is being boosted in a very significant way with material impact to either their damage output or survivability.

See above. It's a bonus, to be sure, but a polished turd is still a turd.

Quote :
Overwatch

I agree that I would love to see the Wyches invulnerable save count against overwatch but really how big of a deal is it? Dark Angels aside here, is the reality:

1. 10 Wyches charge a unit of 10 Tactical Marines
2. Wych splinter pistols kill 1 Marine
3. 9 Marines fire overwatch kill 1-2 Wyches (variable due to Wych Toughness and FNP yes/no)

Not the end of the world and if they were shooting into a light infantry squad, their splinter pistols would have taken out far more on the charge in due to AP5.

Flamers, Scatter Lasers, Pulse Rifles, Tau in general etc really make a mess of Wyches in overwatch. You also say that Wyches should be going after light infantry but follow that argument through. Light infantry generally come in BIG units. Even a lowly lasgun, fleshborer or shoota becomes dangerous when there are 30 of them pointing at you.

Quote :
So what happens then with our "can't kill anything models"? With PFP and Combat Drugs there a quite a few variables to math hammer but they will kill that squad more often than not and do far worse to those squads they were designed to go after.

I encourage you to do the mathhammer on some of the units you feel Wyches should be going after as I think you are vastly overestimating their offensive potential. What usually happens is that the Wyches do sod all damage, take 1 or 2 casualties, break and are either swept or left standing in the open ready to be shot at next turn.

Quote :
Even if all they do is tarpit them, then guess what, great! The average marine shooting unit is loaded with special/heavy weapons that would make a mockery of our venom spam shooting lists anyway so all told any turn that I tie them up flailing away with their base 1A CC weapon is a win for me.

That's about the best you can possibly hope for from Wyches and they're not even particularly good at that. Sad

Quote :
Fundamentally the problem that folks have with Wyches is that they see the codex only through the lens of playing against 3+ save marines and nothing else. If that is your meta then yes I might spend my points in some other way but as I said earlier, these guys are just fine for doing the role they were set out for.

The role that you have defined for them a) they do really badly and b) is done better by virtually any other unit in our codex. Seriously, the absolute last thing we need help with is light infantry! Why on earth would I use Wyches when I've got Venoms, Raider gunboats, Razorwings etc all of which are orders of magnitude better at taking out the targets that you claim our Wyches excel against!


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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Sat Jul 09 2016, 00:02

@nerdelemental wrote:
Currently, a squad of 10 Lhameans costs 100pts vs. 9 Wyches plus 1 Heckatrix with an Agonizer costing 106.

Your Wyches (assuming 10 Wyches in the unit, and one of them further upgraded into the Hekatrix) would cost 135 pts. Both Wyches & Agonisers are overpriced, agonisers severally so.

@nerdelemental wrote:
Special Weapons

1. There weapons are not rubbish if you used them against a light infantry horde opponent which I argue is their dedicated purpose.

Light infantry horde you say? As in, 30 Orks? Or 50 Fearless Guardsmen? Maybe 40 Termagaunts?

Whatever you charge at is going to overwatch your entire unit to death, take a few casualties and then beat whatever is left alive to a bloody pulp when it's their turn to strike. All for half the price per model of your Wych.

If you're lucky enough to actually play against another weak faction like Orks or Nids, arguably IG, sure it might help out a bit. But you have to remember, every single time you're aiming at 5+ save models with Wyches, you could just shoot and ignore their armour with splinter fire anyway, without risking overwatch or overextending yourself. If you really want dedicated, close infantry-hate, flamers do the same thing for cheaper than Wyches, more reliably than Wyches, and can be allied in without too much issue.

@nerdelemental wrote:
Fundamentally the problem that folks have with Wyches is that they see the codex only through the lens of playing against 3+ save marines and nothing else.

That's because that's the gold standard by which a unit needs to be capable of handling in any take-all-comers / tournament environment. Space marine and Chaos space marine armies together comprise about half of the entire player base, so a T4 body with a 3+ armour save is one of the biggest considerations one needs to make when seeing if a unit is worth it's salt. Even discounting these two factions, at least another half of all remaining players use Tau or Eldar or both, and these codexes completely invalidate Wyches in numerous ways.

A pulse rifle on a 9pt Fire Warrior literally kills a Wych on a 2+, and all the while, that lowly Fire Warrior has better armour and a 30" range gun to work with. Disregarding better access to formations & haywire of course...

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Sat Jul 09 2016, 00:24

~Hydranixx: most of those quoted references were not mine.

The first one about the Lhamens is mine, but I'm at a loss what you're arguing about. Seems like we are on the same page but you're arguing against me. You're right - they cost even more than I did in my head because I automatically reduced their cost closer to what I think they should cost.

My point, that you seem to have somehow overlooked, is that the Lhameans are better in every way than a similarly costed pile of Wyches. As you've pointed out my math error, my point is even stronger: only 8 Wyches with a Hekatrix with an Agonizer are close to the cost of 10 Lhameans. Making Wyches even less usable.

I think you're lumping me into the group that's supporting Wyches. I'm not. They're unusable. I do, however, support the idea of changing them in newer Codexes. The point of this thread is focused on their loss of Haywire grenades. I'm in the camp that they wouldn't need them if they had any other value. I don't want them to have Haywires. But currently they don't have anything redeeming at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Sat Jul 09 2016, 00:29

Every other quote should be attributed to Ultra Magnus that said I dunno what would make them better I'd like price reduction, better armor saves and 1 more attack, but I don't think any of those things would make them better at what ever it is that Gw thinks they are supposed to do.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Sat Jul 09 2016, 16:13

The Wyches are beautiful models, I love my Wych cult army. I don't play any more because I don't like the only models in our army that are effective. I don't want a Grotesque army, or homunculi, or Wracks. I don't like those models, but they are the only ones with decent rules/costs. Incubi, Hellions, and Reavers are slightly to expensive; Wyches are way to expensive; Warriors are maybe 1 point to expensive. The core rules are broken, and the speed "advantage" of playing Dark Eldar was given to every other army.

Hormagaunts are what 6 points each? For 4 extra points we get a shooting attack, a special rule with a random effect, and hell can't think of anything. Do Hormagaunts still have the leap special rule that allows them to attack with full attacks from a greater distance? I really only follow this site because I like my Dark Eldar models, I haven't played in over a year due to the state of the rules/imbalance. It doesn't seem to be getting any better.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Sat Jul 09 2016, 20:13

@megatrons2nd wrote:
The Wyches are beautiful models, I love my Wych cult army.  I don't play any more because I don't like the only models in our army that are effective.  I don't want a Grotesque army, or homunculi, or Wracks.  I don't like those models, but they are the only ones with decent rules/costs.  Incubi, Hellions, and Reavers are slightly to expensive; Wyches are way to expensive; Warriors are maybe 1 point to expensive.  The core rules are broken, and the speed "advantage" of playing Dark Eldar was given to every other army.

Hormagaunts are what 6 points each?  For 4 extra points we get a shooting attack, a special rule with a random effect, and hell can't think of anything.  Do Hormagaunts still have the leap special rule that allows them to attack with full attacks from a greater distance?  I really only follow this site because I like my Dark Eldar models, I haven't played in over a year due to the state of the rules/imbalance.  It doesn't seem to be getting any better.
Incubi and Reavers are fine at their point cost (how can a 16pt Eldar Jet Bike be considered overcosted?) and work very well, almost always earning more than their points cost back for me each game.

Hormagaunts are 5pts each and are A2 and can be given Poison 4+ for 3pts. Bounding Leap lets them add 3" to their run moves, so not that useful though not terrible. Not a great unit but usable and better than Wyches whilst generally being cheaper (you wouldn't give them Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands as thats a huge points sink for an expendable tar pit).
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Sat Jul 09 2016, 22:03

3 Incubi for the cost of 2 terminators are not a good conversion. The terminator is better in every way except Initiative.

Now look at the Eldar Jetbike. See how much better it is, now look at the marginal increase in cost to effectiveness. For a bit more, moving to two of ours to one of theirs, they get to triple the range, and quadruple the RoF. All on a more survivable platform with similar movement capabilities. Oh, and it's troops slot also.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Sat Jul 09 2016, 22:14

So what are our cc choices, apart from incubi?
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Sat Jul 09 2016, 23:16

@megatrons2nd wrote:
3 Incubi for the cost of 2 terminators are not a good conversion.  The terminator is better in every way except Initiative.

Now look at the Eldar Jetbike.  See how much better it is, now look at the marginal increase in cost to effectiveness.  For a bit more, moving to two of ours to one of theirs, they get to triple the range, and quadruple the RoF.  All on a more survivable platform with similar movement capabilities.  Oh, and it's troops slot also.
The windrider being undercosted is not an excuse, though at base it's shooting is shorter range and Reavers have Skilled Rider, which makes a difference.

You really need to look at those Incubi again. They have better Initiative, WS and number of attacks, those Termi's will be dead before they ever get the chance to attack. The only Termies I wouldn't throw Incubi against are Paladins, Deathwing Knights and those with Storm Shield and Thunderhammer as they're too survivable for Incubi to go toe to toe with.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Sat Jul 09 2016, 23:18

Grotesques and Reavers. I wouldn't say Incubi actually are a real cc CHOICE they are a specialist tool to be used in very specific circumstances
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Sun Jul 10 2016, 03:58

I am fairly certain Termies get 2 attacks base as well, but maybe it is the versions that I played against. The lack of grenades, combined with overwatch, the lack of any ranged attack, and the invulnerable save that terminators get on top of 2+ armor, plus the fact that they will typically ignore our FnP, makes it not as cut and dry as we are better. I didn't say they need a huge points drop, but they are inferior than their targets, and only will work vs that unit in a specific situation. ie the opposing player chooses to not put them in cover. A 1-2 point drop, and/or reduce the cost of the Klaivex and his upgrades; or you could allow them to assault out of a Raider in the assault phase and give them an assault grenade effect; or something else. As is they are overpriced for their capabilities.

I really think that giving the Dark Eldar non coven units an ability that allows them to assault out of the Raider in the assault phase, and have this cause the defending unit to lose overwatch would help the army immensely. Giving them this and I would say the points cost is right, and would fit their fluff.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Sun Jul 10 2016, 16:49

@megatrons2nd wrote:
I am fairly certain Termies get 2 attacks base as well, but maybe it is the versions that I played against.  The lack of grenades, combined with overwatch, the lack of any ranged attack, and the invulnerable save that terminators get on top of 2+ armor, plus the fact that they will typically ignore our FnP, makes it not as cut and dry as we are better.  I didn't say they need a huge points drop, but they are inferior than their targets, and only will work vs that unit in a specific situation.  ie the opposing player chooses to not put them in cover.  A 1-2 point drop, and/or reduce the cost of the Klaivex and his upgrades; or you could allow them to assault out of a Raider in the assault phase and give them an assault grenade effect; or something else.  As is they are overpriced for their capabilities.

I really think that giving the Dark Eldar non coven units an ability that allows them to assault out of the Raider in the assault phase, and have this cause the defending unit to lose overwatch would help the army immensely.  Giving them this and I would say the points cost is right, and would fit their fluff.
Your right, I'd missed the A2 on Termies what with them usually being dead before they get to hit back against my Incubi. I generally don't care about their overwatch, with a 3+, 5++ Storm Bolters hitting on 6's is nothing to worry about though Cyclone Missile Launchers and Assault Cannons can be a problem but hitting on 6's means it's unlikely I'd loose more than 1 model. 2+ armour doesn't matter in the slightest, the Klaive ignores it being AP2. Yes, charging into terrain is a problem but contrary to popular belief units don't spend the entire game stuck in terrain unless they're a backfield shooting squad, in which case my Incubi probably wont care because they're usually easy kills in close combat regardless, and I'd never charge Terminators or any other dedicated close combat unit in terrain as thats willfully throwing away one of their biggest advantages on them, initiative. Given how easy it is to kill Terminators (and I do this on a regular basis) and many other assault units with Incubi I see no need to reduce their points, at 20ppm they're still much better than a Striking Scorpion or Howling Banshee. As for the Klaivex, he's a 10pt upgrade like pretty much every other Sgt upgrade in the game and only has 1 upgrade, the Demiklaives which are worse than Klaives in every way so no one ever takes them. For that you get +1WS, I, A and Ld and the Rampage special rule so I'd say it was worth it, he certainly does a lot of work for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Sun Jul 10 2016, 17:21

The Banhees eat Incubi for breakfast. I've done it several times with mine before I got rid of my Eldar. The loss of any ranged ability at all is a huge setback, bladestorm just adds to the issue. Banshees are 15-16 points, and while not inherently better, they are comparable. They gain several special rules over the Incubi, lose on armor and strength, but gain the ability to stop overwatch, and are not hindered by terrain.

Yes terrain is a factor, I'm sorry your opponents haven't figured out that the best way to nuke an Incubi assault is to move into cover. My typical opponents have learned this long ago, and will kill my transport ASAP, to force them to slog it, and then move to keep cover between them. This very simple strategy is the biggest hamper to an Incubi's power. Incubi can do 1 thing, assault a unit in the open, and if an opponent is decent they will blunt that by shooting and moving into cover.

Incubi are strong, they are scary, they are situational, they are one dimensional, and they are priority targets. Thus they are overpriced, but not by much.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Mon Jul 11 2016, 15:13

@megatrons2nd wrote:
The Banhees eat Incubi for breakfast.  I've done it several times with mine before I got rid of my Eldar.  The loss of any ranged ability at all is a huge setback, bladestorm just adds to the issue.  Banshees are 15-16 points, and while not inherently better, they are comparable.  They gain several special rules over the Incubi, lose on armor and strength, but gain the ability to stop overwatch, and are not hindered by terrain.

Yes terrain is a factor, I'm sorry your opponents haven't figured out that the best way to nuke an Incubi assault is to move into cover.  My typical opponents have learned this long ago, and will kill my transport ASAP, to force them to slog it, and then move to keep cover between them.  This very simple strategy is the biggest hamper to an Incubi's power.  Incubi can do 1 thing, assault a unit in the open, and if an opponent is decent they will blunt that by shooting and moving into cover.

Incubi are strong, they are scary, they are situational, they are one dimensional, and they are priority targets.  Thus they are overpriced, but not by much.
I wish I could play on boads with as much terrain as yours seem to have, or do you play against nothing but static armies?

Banshees are 13pts. And it's interesting that 10 Banshees with an exarch cost the same as 7 Incubi with a Klaivex and in comparing their base stats, the Banshees will kill 3-4 Incubi (21 attacks hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's with FnP negating 1 or 2 of those wounds) whilst the Incubi will kill about 7 Banshees (15 attacks hitting on 3's killing on 3's) with Rampage able to push it up to 8. Prior casualties and who get's the charge off can swing things massively but overwatch doesn't worry me here since thats not actually likely to kill off a single Incubus.

Sure, charging into terrain against Banshees is an auto lose for the Incubi, but what kind of idiot would be foolish enough to do that? And if those Banshee's are hiding in terrain waiting for something to come near them then they aren't actually doing anything of use, which is fine by me.

Frankly there's a reason why Banshees are considered one of the worst units in the Craftworld Eldar codex, their damage output is not much better than a Wych's (WS4,S3) whilst being only marginally more survivable. You throw Banshees and Incubi against any infantry unit that isn't close combat oriented and terrain or no, the Incubi will clean house whilst the Banshees will struggle. Against CC oriented units you have to be more careful in picking your fights but I'm OK with that.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Mon Jul 11 2016, 15:16

Didnt banshee always negate enemy initiative? So they always mulch incubi? Actuallly Wyches point for point is better bannnshee killer.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Mon Jul 11 2016, 19:06

@Imateria wrote:

I wish I could play on boads with as much terrain as yours seem to have, or do you play against nothing but static armies?

When I made the shift from playing in a healthy local meta(50-75 active players) to playing in national competitive events, I was taken aback at how much terrain was present in large national tournaments.

It really is so much terrain, with such big pieces of terrain near the middle, that weapons with more than 24" range are almost a waste unless they also have barrage. And infantry units have very few issues jumping from cover piece to cover piece if they're willing to run.

That said, once tournaments start using the GW FAQs, the amount of terrain may change bigtime, since the current version of the GW FAQ eliminates models' long standing ability to move through cover like the kool-aid man. If this rule is adopted in tournament play, either the terrain will change, or the types of units will change. It might make things like assault marines good, simply because they're able to move in a straight line through walls rather than having to walk around them.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Mon Jul 11 2016, 20:12

@Azdrubael wrote:
Didnt banshee always negate enemy initiative? So they always mulch incubi? Actuallly Wyches point for point is better bannnshee killer.
I don't know about previous books but the Banshee mask negates overwatch, which is hardly a concern for Incubi as they have no shooting. Wyches don't kill anything, certainly not Banshees.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Mon Jul 11 2016, 21:20

Back in the distant past, when men were men, and Wyches were a viable unit, I used to play regularly against an Eldar opponent. He had a unit of Banshees and a unit of Scorpions, against my Incubi and Wyches. If the Wyches fought Banshees and Incubi fought Scorpions, the Dark Eldar won, and if reversed the Eldar won.

At that time, Banshee masks gave the Banshees an initiative advantage (there was no overwatch), and Wyches negated the bonus attack for two weapons.

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megatrons2nd
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches and haywire   Mon Jul 11 2016, 22:04

My terrain covered 1/4 of the board.

Banshees shooting will kill 1-3 depending on how much bladestorm helps them. Hit on 3's shooting, wound on 3's shooting, and will average 1-2 bladestorm hits, and there will be an average of 1 failed save beyond this. Then the 3-4 kills in combat depending on who gets the assault in.

You need to look at the whole unit not just the assault capability. If the Banshees are unable to shoot for some reason, then yes Incubi will likely end the Banshees, but when shooting is added the Banshees will win, most of the time.

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