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 Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 21:29

From the Reserves rules

Quote :
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together.

Can we move on now?

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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 21:33

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
No, Rewind. Embarking is a verb to describe HOW you get "inside" something. If another rule gives us permission to START already inside something, there is no need to embark. The English language needs to be referenced, here, and common sense utilized.

It's not a made up, game-specific construct. It's an actual word OUTSIDE of 40k, and as such, you must reference what that word means outside of 40k to understand what they're saying INSIDE of 40k.

Wow, 1st time I find myself disagreeing with you Wink

Sadly, I don't think the dictionary description for a word matters here, you can quote the BRB or a Codex, not the Dictionary.

Yes, it's a word OUTSIDE of 40k, obviously, however it is also a specific rule INSIDE 40k, with a 3 paragraph decription on page 80 of the BRB.

The Deployment rules on 132 state you can deploy inside a vehicle, but to not break the existing Embarking rule, the only units that then could deploy in vehicles, would be those in Dedicated Transports.

To argue, that any other special rules are given is a hell of a stretch & to just go ahead & break the earlier printed rules, rather than interept both rules together is far aside from the common sense you mention.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 21:35

We really can't move on. Nothing about that passage says you may do so, just that if you can do so you must declare it beforehand.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 21:40

@amorrowlyday wrote:
We really can't move on.  Nothing about that passage says you may do so, just that if you can do so you must declare it beforehand.

Agreed, it just means if I have 3 units of Warriors embarked in Venoms, I have to say so.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 22:01

Okay guys, are you honestly trying to argue that no unit can arrive from reserve in anything other than a dedicated transport? So the Stormraven's transport capacity is completely pointless, as are Drop Pods in the fast attack section.

Speaking of Stormraven's, this is from the GW FAQ for Blood Angels:

Quote :
Then you have to move the Angel’s Fury Spearhead Force onto the battlefield as described in Moving On From Reserve. The units that you wish to measure from must disembark, as you cannot measure from the models with teleport homers while they are embarked on vehicles.

According to you, this would be impossible as the Stormraven is not a dedicated transport.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 22:17

That's exactly what I'm arguing. I'm also arguing that having different people writing different and contradictory FAQ's can and will break the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 22:20

@Count Adhemar wrote:


Quote :
Then you have to move the Angel’s Fury Spearhead Force onto the battlefield as described in Moving On From Reserve. The units that you wish to measure from must disembark, as you cannot measure from the models with teleport homers while they are embarked on vehicles.


I don't have a quote, but haven't you conveniently forgotten the rule that says, all the tactical squads have to start embarked in the Stormravens?

Like a Dedicated Transport, this allows you to start deployed in said vehicle.

It changes nothing.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 22:35

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Okay guys, are you honestly trying to argue that no unit can arrive from reserve in anything other than a dedicated transport?

No, because some Codex Transports have special rules that allow it to happen.

Being a Transport only confers a transport capacity, acces points etc.

You can choose to DS an empty Tranport onto the board, or choose to deploy one in your DZ.

You can deploy a unit next to it & then embark it it your movement phase.

There are rules for all of the above.

Starting embarked in a vehicle is allowed by the Dedicated Transport rule.

Blood Angels have a specific Formation with it's own special rule, that trumps both their Codex & the BRB, so they can start embarked.

Stormravens have special rules, our units don't. Raiders & Venoms can only do what our rules say.
Drop Pods are SM special units that again are allowed to break the BRB rules, as Codex trump BRB.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 22:51

So if we ignore the deployment rules, reserve rules, English language, GW FAQs, White Dwarf battle reports, pretty much every Imperium list that utilises reserves and common sense we arrive at the position that you are arguing in favour of.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 22:53

No. If we hold the collection of all of the above to RAW as we should we come to the position we are arguing for.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 23:05

I have to agree with the Count here. The deployment and reserve rules say you can deploy inside a transport vehicle, and unless there is a reason that you can't deploy in said vehicle, you should be allowed to do so.

Reasons you might not be allowed to include being jump pack units, having more models than the transport capacity, or potentially the FAQ saying Battle Brothers cannot.

Rewind - am I correct in thinking this is the logic you are using here:

1) Units may be deployed 'inside' Transport vehicles in their deployment zone (p132) [I'll call this the Deployment Rule]
2) The Deployment Rule doesn't provide any exception to embarking only occurring in the movement phase
Therefore:
3) Non-dedicated Transports cannot start the game with embarked units

With a similar argument when it comes to reserves, although interestingly reserves uses the word embarked, and deployment uses the word inside.

If that is your argument, wouldn't dedicated transports have the same problem, as their rule states:
Main Rule Book p81 wrote:
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).
That also doesn't specifically provide permission to embark outside the movement phase, it only says the Dedicated Transport can only carry the unit.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 23:08

Another bit of supporting evidence from the SM FAQ:

Q. Can Centurions ride in Drop Pods?
A. Yes

Centurions do not have Drop Pods as a DT option so the only possible way to do this is by using one from the fast attack section.

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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Tue Jul 05 2016, 23:33

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Another bit of supporting evidence from the SM FAQ:

Q. Can Centurions ride in Drop Pods?
A. Yes

Centurions do not have Drop Pods as a DT option so the only possible way to do this is by using one from the fast attack section.

So GW have decided to boost the SM Codex again, big woop! The draft FAQ has changed the SM Codex to now give it the option. It doesn't affect us.

Virtually all our Codex can take DT's already, it changes little.

If you want to put the earlier mentioned Grots. into another units Raider & start embarked. It would have to be a HQ's DT & they would have to join the HQ to form a single unit.

We're not suggesting we break the game!

But, no, you can't just buy any old transport & start with any other random unit embarked in it.


Maybe we are, lol, it does say, only the unit that brought it + indi chars that join, not the other way around.


Last edited by Rewind on Tue Jul 05 2016, 23:39; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : accuracy)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Wed Jul 06 2016, 00:18

You're just going to ignore everything anyone says that contradicts your view on this so I think I'll leave it at that. Have a good night!

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Wed Jul 06 2016, 00:28

@Rewind wrote:

Wow, 1st time I find myself disagreeing with you Wink

Sadly, I don't think the dictionary description for a word matters here, you can quote the BRB or a Codex, not the Dictionary.

It actually DOES matter. You see, we need to be speaking the same language to even have a debate here, and if you're attempting to take the position that we can ignore the English definition of words, and thus that language does not matter, I encourage you to make the remainder of your argument in Swahili and see how much traction said argument finds. Wink

Like the Count, I am also unwilling to debate this further, as the arguments for disallowing it require absurd literary gymnastics and a willful abandonment of common sense.

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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Wed Jul 06 2016, 01:04

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Like the Count, I am also unwilling to debate this further, as the arguments for disallowing it require absurd literary gymnastics and a willful abandonment of common sense.
Would you be happy if it was one or the other, but both is a step too far?

Reading the rules for Embarking again, all I see there is it tells you a unit can embark during the movement phase - it doesn't say you cannot embark at other times. Therefore there is no conflict with deployment or reserves rules allowing you to embark during deployment.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Wed Jul 06 2016, 01:31

@Kantalla wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Like the Count, I am also unwilling to debate this further, as the arguments for disallowing it require absurd literary gymnastics and a willful abandonment of common sense.
Would you be happy if it was one or the other, but both is a step too far?

Actually, in some cases, yeah, haha. It's unfortunate, but there are plenty of times when the rules as written fly in the face of common sense, but in those times, it shouldn't require literary gymnastics to make it do so. GW is bad enough at writing rules without us trying to manufacture EXTRA screwups where they don't exist. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Wed Jul 06 2016, 14:57

@Kantalla wrote:
Rewind - am I correct in thinking this is the logic you are using here:

1) Units may be deployed 'inside' Transport vehicles in their deployment zone (p132) [I'll call this the Deployment Rule]
2) The Deployment Rule doesn't provide any exception to embarking only occurring in the movement phase
Therefore:
3) Non-dedicated Transports cannot start the game with embarked units


Yes, purely as a RAW query of the rules, not RAI.

@Kantalla wrote:
If that is your argument, wouldn't dedicated transports have the same problem, as their rule states:
Main Rule Book p81 wrote:
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).
That also doesn't specifically provide permission to embark outside the movement phase, it only says the Dedicated Transport can only carry the unit.

I would firstly like to thank you for providing a rule from a game source as a decent counter, bravo Smile

So, what your saying, is that NOTHING is actually given permission to Embark in the Deployment phase?

But, since RAI clearly a DT can have it's troops embarked inside it before the game starts & nothing changes the rules for a DT or a standard Transport, except the quoted Limitation of what can start in a DT.

If a DT can do it, a Transport MUST be able to do it too.

I can buy that logic.

Re-reading the Drop Pod entry in the SM Codex. If you don't work on the assumption that you can Embark into a DP, the Embarking rules would stop you from being able to use one at all, as the DT rule doesn't allow you to embark & neither does 'Drop Pod Assault'.

Your logic breaks no game rules, no English language rules & has BRB references to actually back it up.

I concede, units can start the game embarked in Transports, as long as you declare it before you start to deploy.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Wed Jul 06 2016, 22:42

That's remarkably reasonable of you!

Most rules discussions I have seen over the years are either someone who genuinely doesn't understand a rule asking for clarification, or two (or more) people largely ignoring what each other says and repeating the same stuff over and over. In the latter case, the only benefit is for a neutral party because the protagonists aren't interested in coming to agreement.

My argument is only very subtly different to the way you wrote it up:
1) Various rules use different words for putting a unit in a vehicle (deployment uses 'inside', reserves uses embark, and dedicated transports uses carry).
2) The words in point 1 are intended to mean embarking on a vehicle.
3) The Embarking rules do not prevent embarking outside the movement phase (as they only specify you can embark during movement)
Therefore
4) Deployment and reserves are legitimate ways of embarking a unit in a transport.

Point 2 is RAI, so it isn't a cast iron argument, but I think most people would accept it.

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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Wed Jul 06 2016, 23:23

@Kantalla wrote:
That's remarkably reasonable of you!

Most rules discussions I have seen over the years are either someone who genuinely doesn't understand a rule asking for clarification, or two (or more) people largely ignoring what each other says and repeating the same stuff over and over.

I hope no one actually believes they genuinely understand the rules Smile They are contradictary by design.

Advanced rules trump Basic rules.
Codex trumps BRB
Expansions trump Codex
FAQ trumps everything?


I was stuck in a logic loop that thankfully, you've let me break, with logic. I was trying to argue it both ways in my own head & have reread the BRB many times lol, searching for a counter that I just couldn't find RAW.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Sun Jul 24 2016, 13:05

Hello everyone, I got back to the game after a short hiatus and I find this new FAQ and Corsairs and all that surprising stuff... so I would like to ask a question that bugs me regarding this topic:

If an unit is comprised of a Corsair Prince (Eldar Corsairs Faction) and say Kabalite Warriors (Dark Eldar Faction), does the unit as a whole have both faction rules and can it thus start embarked on the KWs' Raider Dedicated Transport?

Or can only KWs start embarked and CP has to hop in T1?

I only found this sentence in the Characters section of BRB: "Remember, a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of a unit." This vaguely suggests that the IC is a part of the unit of KWs, which are Faction Dark Eldar...

Thoughts?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Sun Jul 24 2016, 15:02

The faction for that unit is both Faction Corsairs and Faction Dark Dark Eldar. For that reason I have argued that in fact you cannot begin the game inside due to that unit now being battle brothers with its dedicated transport due to the unit, but not its transport, having the corsairs faction from its IC.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Battle Brothers and the Draft FAQ   Sun Jul 24 2016, 17:23

It belongs to BOTH factions. Its both BB and its own Faction. It has the right and does not have the right to start in the DT. What takes precedence?
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