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Skari
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PostSubject: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Mon Jun 27 2016, 01:37

The new Begin Collecting Dark Eldar box has been released. It includes:

Archon
10 Kabalite Warriors
Raider
3 Reaver Jetbikes

The Special Rule is that the archon can pick an enemy unit in LOS and all others in the formation gain preferred enemy against that unit for the turn.

This is actually quite good! But at the same time there is a lot of expansion potential to the formation. First of all, the units can take dedicated transports.. so, the archon could take a venom, and the kabalites could take another raider...

The reaver jetbike unit can also be expanded.

So from a small starter set... we can make it all the larger!

Pick an enemy unit... and then light them up with poison... one dead infantry unit or MC.

So, how can you add this into your army?

There are also some contentious issues.. can you add a court of the archon to the formation? And can you "upgrade" the kabalites to trueborn... blaster born with preferred enemy would be awesome!
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Mon Jun 27 2016, 01:44

Yeah, then there's also the issue of the FAQs claiming that characters don't have line of sight from inside a vehicle for special rules other than shooting or witchfires.

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Adma
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Mon Jun 27 2016, 02:03

I just picked up the new starter set today and I must say I'm quite excited!
It's funny, but at this point I've watched enough Skaredcasts that I read the OP with Skari's voice as my interior monologue.
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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Mon Jun 27 2016, 02:09

@Adma wrote:
I just picked up the new starter set today and I must say I'm quite excited!
It's funny,  but at this point I've watched enough Skaredcasts that I read the OP with Skari's voice as my interior monologue.
Same here.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Mon Jun 27 2016, 02:13

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Yeah, then there's also the issue of the FAQs claiming that characters don't have line of sight from inside a vehicle for special rules other than shooting or witchfires.

Does that apply to open topped vehicles as well? I think it would be rather questionable if an Archon can shoot a target with a Blaster from within a Venom but is not able to point his finger into the same direction.

@Skari The general tone seems that all bets are off. Trueborn are just an upgrade similar to taking a Venom/Raider and when looking at the exact wording of how the Court works even that seems like a possibility.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Mon Jun 27 2016, 07:51

The only time you can use fire points is when shooting

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Mon Jun 27 2016, 10:43

My reading so far is Yes to trueborn and court, no to LOS inside transport.

Even so, I don't think it's worth it. Too hard to get off the PE. Even if you could do it within a transport.

BTW, anyone else find it funny that the raider was explicitly mentioned?
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Mon Jun 27 2016, 12:21

All bets are off because a.) we play DE and thus we play dirty and b.) stuff you Gladius! I'm pretty sure most players would just leave out the Court thing if we had proper formations to work with instead. But we don't and GW rules are there to be twisted for your benefit!

The LoS thing is annoying. Without a FAQ to clarify you can use this rule to draw LoS from within a vehicle you're only option is to have your Archon on foot. This limits him to three options: 1.) He takes a Venom and starts the game outside it acting as a spotter for your other formation units. You can have him get into the venom and move during later turns but you'd lose the value of the rule if he starts the turn inside the venom (you can bait your opponent with this venom and have him destroy it to get your Archon on the ground after a 12" or flat-out move if you really want that PE the next turn but you'd best give your Archon a shadowfield so he doesn't die!); 2.) you webway him onto the board on foot to a location ideal for spotting and/or assaulting (give him a CC squad as a bodyguard) but you lose the special rule until the turn after he comes onto the table (so turn 3 at the earliest, turn 4 if you're unlucky) reducing value of the rule considerably; 3.) You put him in a small squad to camp a part of the board and provide spotting the entire game. Would work best with Mandrakes most likely.

Getting the Archon to work for this formation is something of a pain and restricts you to playing in less than ideal ways. We'll have to see how this works in practice. I think tricking your opponent into blowing up an Archons taxi is the best way to maintain flexibility and firepower but still have that PE be leveraged each turn.

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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Mon Jun 27 2016, 13:36

when are we getting the faqs to the faq?
It's starting to get on my nerves, each answer just spawns more questions...

Edit: How about a compromise, you can ask your opponent if it's ok if you don't take a court, which i hear is RAW legal, but have your Archon being able to point at a target from one of his flying balconies.

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Daspien
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Mon Jun 27 2016, 14:19

I played yesterday a small game using this formation. I played upgrading kabalites to trueborn and giving the archon LOS from the venom, no court. My opponent was ok with the LOS because he also found illogical to be other way.

The archon in the venom was always in a position that could have LOS with the objectives of the 6 reavers with clusters and HWB, it worked really well! Using the PE with the Trueborn was more difficult. Because of the jink FAQ and snapshoots I found myself not using the PE on units that could be threaten by the Trueborn as it was a bit wasted.

Next time I will deep strike the Trueborn venom and be sure their objective has LOS with the archon to take the most of them at least the turn they arrive.


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Rewind
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Mon Jun 27 2016, 15:14

Sadly the LOS issue I think is unfortunately 'cut & dry' and even the most inept rules lawyer will be able to make the case for us not being able to LOS from a transport, as the 3rd question in the FAQ under Transports clears up the rule.

"Q: ...what happens if a unit with this rule (any special rule) is in a transport?" - paraphrased

A: When a unit embarks it is taken off the battlefield & doesn't interact with anything on the battlefield, blah, blah. If a unit's rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this." - paraphrased

Therefore FAQ RAW, as the formation rules don't specify the Archon can 'point' from a transport, he can't.

Hopefully when we get a specific DE FAQ they may change the ruling, or even amend the 1st drafts, but until then, the Archon has to get out to give PE.

I haven't checked, but I assume Tau Ethereals suffer from this too, as they have to get out of their D-fish now, rather than hiding the whole game providing a bubble?


Last edited by Rewind on Mon Jun 27 2016, 15:15; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Tue Jun 28 2016, 02:15

I am really excited to try this formation. I think it will be great to use as asmall Infantry killing formation... 5 Trueborn with 2 x SC with the archon outside for LOS, 2 venoms, the raider and the reavers... bam. A cool little Dark Eldar force.
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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Tue Jun 28 2016, 03:22

it definitely looks solid. a nice little 500 point formation, depending on upgrades and reaver count.

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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Tue Jun 28 2016, 08:23

Scene - exterior: rubble strewn city just after sunset. Distant screams and gunshots are heard. Camera pans left, an alien looking hovercraft speeding along the ruins comes in to view. Camera zooms in.

Venom pilot: Ahh the fresh screams of battle joined! To what would you have us lay waste great lord.
Archon McDerponyx: WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
Venom pilot: ....why did I sign up for this...
Venom gunner: You were given a choice to serve or be skinned alive by rabid gerbils remember.
Venom pilot: Right... Still not sure it was worth it.
Archon McDerponyx: STOP! I want to shoot my pistol at the primitive brutes!  *Pew *pew *pew  
-OK now go in circles! WEEEEEEE!! Faster! WEEEEEEeeee...

Alien looking hovercraft does space doughnuts in rubble strewn parking lot.
*fade to black*
/scene

@Skari Looking forward to see how they perform. Could you leave the wraithknight on the shelf for this one though? The only tactical advice I have gotten from the games you have had with him is : "if you want to win, have a wraithknight in your list". scratch  Not trying to tell you what to do or anything. I just like the batreps where you have an underdog army best.
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drdoom222222
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Tue Jun 28 2016, 09:49

The annoying thing about the DE starter kit formation is that it has to be used at the start of your turn! It would be way more useful if it happened at the start of the shooting phase imo. Just feels very clunky and tricky to pull off. the LOS rules are just plain annoying as well!

Would be interested in hearing/ seeing how this formation performs and if the DE FAQ can clarify it somewhat.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Tue Jun 28 2016, 11:27

@drdoom222222 wrote:
The annoying thing about the DE starter kit formation is that it has to be used at the start of your turn! It would be way more useful if it happened at the start of the shooting phase imo. Just feels very clunky and tricky to pull off. the LOS rules are just plain annoying as well!

Would be interested in hearing/ seeing how this formation performs and if the DE FAQ can clarify it somewhat.

Exactly.

Apart from the obvious archon tax, actually getting this guy to "point" at a target that is worth the effort is much harder to do than many archons realise. Rolling Eyes
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Daspien
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Tue Jun 28 2016, 14:04

Apart from the obvious archon tax, actually getting this guy to "point" at a target that is worth the effort is much harder to do than many archons realise. Rolling Eyes[/quote

Let's be positive and hope our FAQ fixes the LOS issue, when I played with LOS from the Venom worked really well. Without LOS It's going to be difficult to give the PE to the Reavers
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Tue Jun 28 2016, 22:49

As said by others, it's just too hard to get LOS with he archon. (BTW, can he "point" while in cc?)

We are better off using an allied detachment, where we get obsec and the flexability to choose our FA slot along with elite and HS. From a financial standpoint it's a good deal (if you want reavers that is. Archon can be easily kitbashed from the warrior box fyi).

If we MUST use it, maybe SC trueborn with the archon in the squad, on foot? Mandrakes confir their stealth and shrouded to any ICs joining them. But will still be ridiculously easy to kill if the enemy has ranged guns....

Sorry for being a stick in he mud
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Wed Jun 29 2016, 09:51

@Daspien wrote:
Apart from the obvious archon tax, actually getting this guy to "point" at a target that is worth the effort is much harder to do than many archons realise. Rolling Eyes[/quote

Let's be positive and hope our FAQ fixes the LOS issue, when I played with LOS from the Venom worked really well. Without LOS It's going to be difficult to give the PE to the Reavers

I'm positive about DE. They are NOT as bad as the online community makes out. I'm even positive about the new FAQs in that thread, but this formation has serious issues.

Best case scenario GW FAQs it so you can upgrade to trueborn, include the court AND point out of a skimmer. As you can see i'm being crazy positive. Wink  You still have to point at the start of your turn.

This means your archon and any unit he may be with + the skimmer have to survive a full turn just hanging out in full view of the enemy. pale  Any decent opponent who knows the formation rules is going to paint a big target on his head.

Good luck with that vs any good shooty army (tau smiles and waves). affraid
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Wed Jun 29 2016, 13:39

@Painjunky wrote:
This means your archon and any unit he may be with + the skimmer have to survive a full turn just hanging out in full view of the enemy. pale  Any decent opponent who knows the formation rules is going to paint a big target on his head.  affraid

I for one will be parking my Archon on a very high terrain piece. If my opponent wants to waste his longest shots on my Archon who will have a cover save, That's a bonus. His venom will make up for his "binocular" tax, and I like the idea of my Archon surveying the battle.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Wed Jun 29 2016, 16:27

@Draco wrote:


I for one will be parking my Archon on a very high terrain piece. If my opponent wants to waste his longest shots on my Archon who will have a cover save, That's a bonus. His venom will make up for his "binocular" tax, and I like the idea of my Archon surveying the battle.

I would avoid this strategy, or at least deeply consider which army you're facing beforehand as you're pretty much giving up your formation bonus, a kill point, or in the worst case slay the warlord when he dies.  Strength 6, long range, and high volume shooting is more common than ever.  These weapons are typically AP 6 or worse, so even with a shadowfield or cover save an opponent will usually be better off firing at your archon than anything else.

So which weapons are these?  Scatterbikes (or just scatter lasers) are the most obvious threat, but things like multi lasers, autocannons, and skyhammer missile launchers will make him just as dead.  I've personally managed to gib an archon a few times with krak grenades (usually out of launchers).

Now that fire raptors have become pretty much standard for marine armies in my meta (main weapon is heavy 7, strength 6, and twin linked), an archon playing gunga din seems like a worse idea than ever.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Wed Jun 29 2016, 17:25

The only thing that can save this formation is having the archon "point" from inside a transport.

Even then an allied detachment is just plain better, for the reasons I have already stated. The box is an okay package, the formation is garbage. Hard pass
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Wed Jun 29 2016, 18:38

@stilgar27 wrote:

I would avoid this strategy, or at least deeply consider which army you're facing beforehand as you're pretty much giving up your formation bonus, a kill point, or in the worst case slay the warlord when he dies.  Strength 6, long range, and high volume shooting is more common than ever.  These weapons are typically AP 6 or worse, so even with a shadowfield or cover save an opponent will usually be better off firing at your archon than anything else.
So which weapons are these?  Scatterbikes (or just scatter lasers) are the most obvious threat, but things like multi lasers, autocannons, and skyhammer missile launchers will make him just as dead.  I've personally managed to gib an archon a few times with krak grenades (usually out of launchers).
Now that fire raptors have become pretty much standard for marine armies in my meta (main weapon is heavy 7, strength 6, and twin linked), an archon playing gunga din seems like a worse idea than ever.

My home store has a very friendly meta. Cheese doesn't last long, and we currently only have 1 Eldar player. Obviously in more competitive areas what you said above is 100% true. Also, I am VERY grateful for my stores meta.
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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Thu Jun 30 2016, 22:43

i would play the archon being able to see out of his open topped transport.

I have been playing games with ZERO eldar in them! And I am having just as much fun as before and still kickin some ass.

I cant wait to try this formation... there is a tournament next saturday... I am seriously considering taking this formation...
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Adma
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Eldar Starter Set   Thu Jun 30 2016, 23:09

@Skari wrote:
i would play the archon being able to see out of his open topped transport.

I have been playing games with ZERO eldar in them! And I am having just as much fun as before and still kickin some ass.

I cant wait to try this formation... there is a tournament next saturday... I am seriously considering taking this formation...

Please do! I'd love to read or watch how the formation plays in a game!
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