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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Grot uses   Tue Jun 21 2016, 16:35

Ok so I've been liking the coven formation by running both units in raiders (with Aberration + Scissorhands whenever points allow) , but it's a pretty big point investment and a sorta feel the haemy is a big tax. Also the benefits are pretty meh most of the time other than fearless so I can let my HQ's takes risks.

I've also had quite a few games with just 1 unit in a raider with Succubus (Aberration with a scissorhand is a must in this case) that's worked out pretty well.

Though opponents learn pretty quicking to destroy those raiders if they go first.

What about a much larger unit on foot with an HQ?

Possibly starting within a fortification such as the bastion (which provides a nice large line of sight blocker and some upgrade options) or utilizing void shield generator (deployed on the of deployment zone shields would extend out of deployment zone for some movement).

Any thoughts?

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Tue Jun 21 2016, 21:20

I run the formation frequently. I prefer smaller units in raiders, although I've also done 10 man units deploying via WWP. (Huge fun; virtually nothing has the firepower to eliminate the unit.)

Foot slogging over the table seems like a bad idea unless you ally in a Void Dreamer to try to slingshot them ahead.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Wed Jun 22 2016, 04:21

@Jimsolo wrote:

Foot slogging over the table seems like a bad idea unless you ally in a Void Dreamer to try to slingshot them ahead.

A Bastion with an escape hatch can also slingshot them forward like 18" plus a run move on turn 1.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Wed Jun 22 2016, 04:27

But wouldn't allow a T1 charge.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Wed Jun 22 2016, 05:00

@Jimsolo wrote:
But wouldn't allow a T1 charge.

No, but raiders don't really allow a turn 1 charge either beyond 6 inches of movement plus disembark. And none of the other options offer turn 1 charge either. To be honest, not sure where the idea for this critique came from. This is just an alternative to having their raider blown up before they ever move on turn 1, then having to walk across the board 6 inches at a time.

And they CAN charge on turn 1 if they go second. Just have them walk out the normal door instead of the escape hatch, so long as someone is within 18" of the door. Wink

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Wed Jun 22 2016, 06:42

@Jimsolo wrote:
I run the formation frequently.  I prefer smaller units in raiders, although I've also done 10 man units deploying via WWP. (Huge fun; virtually nothing has the firepower to eliminate the unit.)

Foot slogging over the table seems like a bad idea unless you ally in a Void Dreamer to try to slingshot them ahead.

That allows a T1 charge.

Since your post was directly after mine, (and you quoted the part of my post that would allow the T1 charge) I assumed you were responding to my post. Very Happy
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Thu Jun 23 2016, 02:15

Oh, I can see how it may have come across that way. It wasn't a counter to your void dreamer idea, just an alternate option to the decidedly bad idea of foot slogging. Maybe I should have cut off the last part. Both the void dreamer and bastion are potentially good ideas. I was just throwing an option in that didn't require additional allies, since I often find my list ideas limited by house rules limiting the number of detachments. Wink

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Thu Jun 23 2016, 07:54

@Seshiru wrote:
Any thoughts?

Yeah. I thought the haemy was a big tax at first too. Not so much now. If you keep him cheap (naked or a sump for fleet) and stick him out the front so he can LoS wounds around and be another 3 T5 wounds to shoot through. He actually makes the grot unit tougher! Twisted Evil

You did need 3 wounds to kill a grot, well now you need 5 or 6 if you choose to lose the haemy which is often a good idea. The PFP turn buff is nice for the grots and succubus too and he is another -1 Ld bubble you can put somewhere in your army.

Another thought... If your opponent goes first and you simply cannot hide 2 raiders in your dep zone, you would be wise to reserve your grotesquerie.

Grot raiders are target #1 for a decent opponent. Then your grots have to walk which is a HUGE waste of points. Adding a little reserve manipulation in your list, like an autarch/comms may be an option. Smile
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Thu Jun 23 2016, 14:52

@Painjunky wrote:
Another thought... If your opponent goes first and you simply cannot hide 2 raiders in your dep zone, you would be wise to reserve your grotesquerie.

Hard to find the points for reserve manipulation when taking the grotesquerie with raiders, but good point. Though for me, the best reserve manipulation would be the bastion with a comms relay and having the bastion would make it super easy to hide them negating the need to put them in reserve.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Thu Jun 23 2016, 17:03

@Seshiru wrote:
@Painjunky wrote:
Another thought... If your opponent goes first and you simply cannot hide 2 raiders in your dep zone, you would be wise to reserve your grotesquerie.

Hard to find the points for reserve manipulation when taking the grotesquerie with raiders, but good point. Though for me, the best reserve manipulation would be the bastion with a comms relay and having the bastion would make it super easy to hide them negating the need to put them in reserve.

You have other units that will benefit the LOSB, while keeping the grots in reserve. Keeping them in reserve and knowing you have good chances they arrive next turn allow you to deepstrike them where you need them most.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sun Jun 26 2016, 08:47

It's can be difficult to hide 2 raiders behind a bastion, if that is your only option, and if it is, you really need more LOSB terrain on the table. Usually some moving and shooting can get shots round the side. Do you really want to take that chance with your expensive grots?

Also what dumpeal said above is truth.
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Adma
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sun Jun 26 2016, 15:15

Couple of questions, one pretty silly (you decide):

1. Do the two units in raiders need to stay close to each other, or could you field one in reserve and the other on the table? (basically is the grotesqurie like a dark artisan; everything is one big unit?

2. are the liquifiers worth it?
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Hellraiser
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sun Jun 26 2016, 16:40

@Adma wrote:
Couple of questions, one pretty silly (you decide):

1. Do the two units in raiders need to stay close to each other, or could you field one in reserve and the other on the table? (basically is the grotesqurie like a dark artisan; everything is one big unit?

2. are the liquifiers worth it?

1. The Dark artisan is in this case an exception from the other supplements. The units in the grotesquerie are separate. This means you can sneak the haemonculus into another unit to have two raiders with a good load'o five grots. Fearless turn two.

2. It boils down to what you will use them against. In most cases, invest the points in more grots. Use liquifiers against large units with low saves.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sun Jun 26 2016, 16:43

1. Absolutely not. The Dark artisan must do so because of it's restrictions. The grotesqurie has no such restrictions.

2. Absolutely not. 15 pts is not worth an ap d6 STR 3 flamer natively, and when you are losing extra attacks in CC every turn to get it it really isn't worth it.

Don't forget that these grotesques also get there own form of drugs in the latest experiments special rule, and all of those results are CC benefits. Anything that is keeping them out of CC is a negative on the effectiveness of the formation and thus a waste of points.

@Hellraiser wrote:

2. It boils down to what you will use them against. In most cases, invest the points in more grots. Use liquifiers against large units with low saves.

Large units with low saves almost universally have T=<4, and thus I would think the additional bodies would still be better than the liquifier guns.
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Adma
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sun Jun 26 2016, 16:53

Thanks for the advice! That clarifies some questions I had about them. Unfortunately it may mean my pocketbook will take a hit as I gather more grots.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sun Jun 26 2016, 21:09

@Adma wrote:
2. are the liquifiers worth it?

The answer to this is always no, regardless of what unit you are talking about.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sun Jun 26 2016, 21:13

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Adma wrote:
2. are the liquifiers worth it?

The answer to this is always no, regardless of what unit you are talking about.

Once again I find myself in agreement with Count Adhemar. The end must be near. Very Happy

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Lupefi
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sat Jul 16 2016, 22:10

That is such a shame that no one uses liquifer guns. I was planning on putting them on the talos from my dark artsian and Deep striking in to give my CTC the fnp bonus and get off twin linked liquifer on mobs. Would that make the guns worth it? Or maybe put the gun on the haemonculos instead. They are such a cool concept and i believe our only template option outside of spirit syphon which doesn't seem worth it at all and mandrakes who again don't seem worth it at all.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sat Jul 16 2016, 23:01

No, that doesn't really make it worth it. Otherwise, units like grots would be upgraded with them, and people would take them on all models and deep strike them with WWPs. The problem is that they're unreliable AP, weak at S3, and overpriced.

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Lupefi
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sun Jul 17 2016, 00:24

damn. Sad to hear, so basically we have no templates worth taking and have to rely on poison shots for anti infantry. Do we have any blasts that are worth their points or at least semi effective or even situationaly exceptional?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sun Jul 17 2016, 00:25

Medusae are ap3 templates and very worth taking. No we have no blast templates worth taking
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sun Jul 17 2016, 03:09

Personally, I'm not convinced Medusae are worth taking.

Liquifier guns definitely aren't. That being said, I know someone on here mentioned taking a Tantalus and packing it full of Liquifier gun toting Grots and a WWP, and said it was very effective. My experience with them has been a pile of hot buttered garbage, but you may want to experiment if you really think they hold up.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Sun Jul 17 2016, 10:54

If you have a few spare points upgrading your HQ tax lamy to a medusae (or even 2) is not a bad option.

If you casually mention to your opponent during deployment these girls can unleash S4 AP3 templates they will consider them a threat.
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Hellraiser
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Mon Jul 18 2016, 21:56

@Lupefi wrote:
That is such a shame that no one uses liquifer guns. I was planning on putting them on the talos from my dark artsian and Deep striking in to give my CTC the fnp bonus and get off twin linked liquifer on mobs. Would that make the guns worth it? Or maybe put the gun on the haemonculos instead. They are such a cool concept and i believe our only template option outside of spirit syphon which doesn't seem worth it at all and mandrakes who again don't seem worth it at all.

You could do it, you know. Just for killing those valiant enemy models by blasting scum on them. I'd agree that it's good to do this in a controlled environment, for example a less competitive game.

For templates: Razorwing. It can fire up to four str8 templates/turn. It also has access to lances and a cannon.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Grot uses   Mon Jul 18 2016, 21:58

BLAST MARKERS ARE NOT TEMPLATE WEAPONS.
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