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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Tue Jun 21 2016, 09:05

Hail cousins,

yesterday I started putting together a list for 2 old-school tournaments (CAD only, no allies etc) and had a strange thought - is it me or do we seem to have fewer units than other armies? I know we'll never be spoiled like Space Marines or Eldar, but still?

Or maybe it's because there really ARE only so many units that we can actually use, because the rest just aren't very good and get dismissed right away?

When building a non-coven list I suppose most of us start with Venoms and Ravagers, sprinkle in their choice of Elite and if going to a tournament end up with a Llhamean as HQ, also in a Venom. Then it's either Scourges or Reavers, and maybe the odd Razorwing but yeah, that's really it. I never really realized that before. We're completely locked in at Heavy Support, because a single Talos or Cronos just won't do very well being slow and with all the grav going around. The Voidraven is way too expensive, so it's not even a contest.

I could cover the other slots but we all know where we stand, and I don't want to bitch and moan - I'm just surprised.

So - I really hope when we get a new codex we'll get some cool new unit(s), too! Or actually, I'd be happy with soem fixes to make the ones we have better Smile

Oh, and wish me luck, I'll probably need it.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Tue Jun 21 2016, 11:01

@BlackCadian wrote:
Or maybe it's because there really ARE only so many units that we can actually use, because the rest just aren't very good and get dismissed right away?

It is pretty much this. We never had a huge range of valid models to begin, but the latest codex narrowed it down quite a bit again.

I think if you want a good army it is pretty much mandatory to include Coven into a list, even if it is only a handful of Grotesques but they can really do a lot and are fun to use. Also, most Coven formations are very good as well and worth trying out.

@BlackCadian wrote:
So -  I really hope when we get a new codex we'll get some cool new unit(s), too! Or actually, I'd be happy with soem fixes to make the ones we have better Smile

Being optimistic is always good, just don't expect too much or you will be disappointed like many on the Dark City when 7th edition hit.

@BlackCadian wrote:
Oh, and wish me luck, I'll probably need it.

Good luck, have fun Smile
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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Tue Jun 21 2016, 13:59

Thank you for your quick and interesting reply! I do plan to include 2 units of grots as I got burned badly in the last tournament when I got easily tabled by a Dark Angels Ravenwing force. Some melee forces should hopefully help there.

I also like the coven formations, even though CTC is pretty expensive money wise, and the dark artisan has always underperformed for me (got shot to pieces every time).

As for a new codex - I don't even think that we're completely on the wrong track - we just had the misfortune to get our release prior to the decurion dexes. Plus, there's armies that are off worse, so there's that.

And thanks, I'll try to have fun but I'll try to win even more Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Tue Jun 21 2016, 17:22

Try converting Skaven Storm fiends into talos. There are quite the possibilities to convert them and they look nice.

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Tue Jun 21 2016, 22:15

Although the price point is essentially the same.

Crypt Horrors, WHFB Ogres, and old Rat Ogres are bargain alternatives. (Although the Stormfiends DO look awesome.)
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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 01:22

My first thought was 'nah, that's silly'.
Then my thought became, 'well, maybe if you only count useful units.'
Then it shifted to 'Also, you can't compare us to Space Marines, obviously they will have more.'
But then it became 'Hurm...I think maybe even just on objective numbers we are on the small side.'

I'd kind of like to do an actual count now out of curiosity.

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 07:35

Kabalite Warriors
Venoms
Raider
Archon (debatable)
Succubus
Medusae
Sslyth
Grotesques
Mandrake
Reavers
Ravager
Razorwing
Talos / chronos (coven supplement)
Incubbi (debatable)
That's 14 units at best. Not too shabby.

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 07:47

To clean up the list, Sslyth and Medusae are actually the same unit.

And I'm willing to be a community wide survey would see the Mandrake not included on the list.  Like, I'd bet money on it.  I know they have some supporters, but the 'drakes are just hot buttered garbage.

I, personally, would also drop the Razorwing, but I'm less confident in being in the majority opinion on that one.

Also, I'd argue for Scourges making the grade.

So, my list, not counting the debatable options, is only 10 units. (Which includes DTs.)
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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 07:50

So we get

.Kabalite Warriors
Venoms
Raider
Archon (debatable)
Succubus
Medusae / Sslyth
Grotesques
Reavers
Ravager
Razorwing (don't touch them! I like them! Multi purpose!)
Talos / chronos (coven supplement)
Incubbi (debatable)

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 09:57

I agree with pretty much all that Jimsolo has written.

However, when I look at the lists of 10-14 units that are worth taking, I further break it down by asking, "Is this being taken because it's actually 'good', or is it being taken because they're the only (somewhat viable) option we have for that role?"

The answer for that first part of the question for me, honestly and sadly, is that I count only Grotesques, Venom/Raiders, and pain engines in their formations, as being models that are genuinely threatening and can make the opponent nervous when they see I have them/see that I have spammed them.

So, after adding in some basic tax choices, my list goes something like:
Grotesques
Pain Engines
Courts of the Archons,
Kabalite Warriors
Raiders & Venoms

Occasionally backed up with Scourges/Reavers/Incubi if I know the match up ahead of time.

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 10:51

I had a REALLY boring morning, so I did some working.



This is every unit from official non-Forgeworld publications. In most cases they;ve been amalgamated, so the Tyranid count for example includes new units in Shield of Baal and Genestealer Cult.

So there we are with our 24 units, which in slightly more than Grey Knights, and only four less than Tau.
Most armies, you're right, have far more units than us.
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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 11:44

If GW is serious about cleaning house then it needs to pull it's pants up and take a look at the codex rules for all factions because Deldar aren't the only faction with trash units that are unplayable or units that just plain suck for whatever reason. You can't have a game with so many great models and units that are worthless in play.

I know people want a new codex fast but I think the game needs a new edition fast to fix many of the issues that exist (such as unplayable units). GW's biggest problem for years was throwing out codex's and new editions in a seemingly random manner whilst changing their game philosophy constantly. The Deldar list would have been ok had GW not flipped it's philosophy right after releasing our new codex. Every faction would have been nerfed and on a similar playing field. Instead they went the other way and buffed everything.

If we can get a new edition built on a solid and stable vision for the game them a new codex can be written that makes all our units useful. In the meantime some formations might provide a suitable stop-gap measure to help the Deldar out. You can make most of those trash units with a decent formation. Give Wyches a decent formation that say doubles their combat drugs (can take two bonuses), allows them to assault from transports moving 12" and gives them a way to survive overwatch (dissie ravagers negating overwatch fire for a unit hit by them) and they might be useful.

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 12:41

@Demantiae wrote:
I know people want a new codex fast but I think the game needs a new edition fast to fix many of the issues that exist (such as unplayable units).
A Codex update seems to be the way to fix unplayable units. No need for a new edition to fix that issue.

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 17:17

I second Kantalla's opinion. The codices are built off of the main rulebook (at least in theory). Trying to fix unplayable units in every codex with a new edition would be a herculean task and most likely lead to a lot of USRs being completely rewritten unnecessarily. Much better to release a new codex or (this is a total fantasy) an online update FAQ-style that alters point costs, stat lines, and special rules specifically designed to fix unplayable units.

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 17:23

@Tounguekutter wrote:
I second Kantalla's opinion.  The codices are built off of the main rulebook (at least in theory).  Trying to fix unplayable units in every codex with a new edition would be a herculean task and most likely lead to a lot of USRs being completely rewritten unnecessarily.  Much better to release a new codex or (this is a total fantasy) an online update FAQ-style that alters point costs, stat lines, and special rules specifically designed to fix unplayable units.

Indeed. And they're already experimenting with just that right now. See the new dreadnought rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 17:25

I KNOW!!!!!!! Very Happy This makes me absolutely GIDDY. I haven't had this much fun since I was raiding on Greyshroud!

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 18:56

GW can't just release an update to fix DE. There's so much to fix that it'd be easier to release a new codex. It isn't just that certain units don't work and need buffing, it's that the vision for the faction has been sold off and given to other armies. All the tings the DE have ever done well, that were meant to do well, have been given to other factions. The DE needs a rethink of what it's meant to do as an army. If meant to be glass canons then the army needs to hit harder than vanilla eldar, which means rethinking the way our weapons work. You can't add a new weapon type to a ravager without sculpting new moulds so we have what we've got which are dark lances, and they're not good enough to be the canon in a glass canon design ethos. Not when Eldar are rocking D weaponry with ease. So you can give the DE some new rules to make Wyches work but what is their thing? Where do they fit in the meta? The meta has moved significantly since 7th ed was introduced, Decurion's have become a thing, free transports everywhere are a thing, never dying Necrons are a thing, Eldar cheese is Eldar cheese. Where are the DE meant to fit in all that? 7th ed was designed with a global nerf in mind. DE got caught in that nerf but then the pendulum swung the other way and half the armies got huge buffs. But 7th ed wasn't designed with such a pwoer creep in mind, with super-heavies everywhere, escalation of fliers and D weaponry and knights popping up all over the place.

What 40k needs is a good old think about where the game is going in the next 4-5 years and an edition designed to cope with that end-game. If the old force orgs are out and formations and dataslates are in then they need to be in for the long term and the game built with that in mind. And then the codex's can catch up and be released without half it's content obsolete on delivery. Or just throw out the codex's all together. DE can be fixed with a series of dataslates and formations released in various formats over the next year or so. But we'd still need for GW to have a clear idea of where to take the game to avoid those becoming obsolete too should they decide to abandon the Decurion/formation model twelve months down the line.

If there's a new campaign book (Doom of Mymeria update for example) that could help mitigate some of the DE problems in the short term. Throwing some stop-gap formations our way to make parts of our army work again would be nice short term but it still won't address the purpose the DE have in the meta until GW takes stock of the current state of the game and works out where it's going. Hopefully it;s doing this already and we'll see the results soon.


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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 19:05

@Squidmaster wrote:
So there we are with our 24 units, which in slightly more than Grey Knights, and only four less than Tau.
Most armies, you're right, have far more units than us.
Thank you for this - yeah, we are assuredly on the small side of number of options.

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 19:37

@Demantiae wrote:
GW can't just release an update to fix DE. There's so much to fix that it'd be easier to release a new codex. It isn't just that certain units don't work and need buffing, it's that the vision for the faction has been sold off and given to other armies. All the tings the DE have ever done well, that were meant to do well, have been given to other factions. The DE needs a rethink of what it's meant to do as an army. If meant to be glass canons then the army needs to hit harder than vanilla eldar, which means rethinking the way our weapons work. You can't add a new weapon type to a ravager without sculpting new moulds so we have what we've got which are dark lances, and they're not good enough to be the canon in a glass canon design ethos. Not when Eldar are rocking D weaponry with ease. So you can give the DE some new rules to make Wyches work but what is their thing? Where do they fit in the meta? The meta has moved significantly since 7th ed was introduced, Decurion's have become a thing, free transports everywhere are a thing, never dying Necrons are a thing, Eldar cheese is Eldar cheese. Where are the DE meant to fit in all that? 7th ed was designed with a global nerf in mind. DE got caught in that nerf but then the pendulum swung the other way and half the armies got huge buffs. But 7th ed wasn't designed with such a pwoer creep in mind, with super-heavies everywhere, escalation of fliers and D weaponry and knights popping up all over the place.

What 40k needs is a good old think about where the game is going in the next 4-5 years and an edition designed to cope with that end-game. If the old force orgs are out and formations and dataslates are in then they need to be in for the long term and the game built with that in mind. And then the codex's can catch up and be released without half it's content obsolete on delivery. Or just throw out the codex's all together. DE can be fixed with a series of dataslates and formations released in various formats over the next year or so. But we'd still need for GW to have a clear idea of where to take the game to avoid those becoming obsolete too should they decide to abandon the Decurion/formation model twelve months down the line.

If there's a new campaign book (Doom of Mymeria update for example) that could help mitigate some of the DE problems in the short term. Throwing some stop-gap formations our way to make parts of our army work again would be nice short term but it still won't address the purpose the DE have in the meta until GW takes stock of the current state of the game and works out where it's going. Hopefully it;s doing this already and we'll see the results soon.


Agree with pretty much all this. Where's the Like button?

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 22 2016, 20:21

I got around the problem of no new weapons without new models by giving almost all Darklight weapons two firing modes in my fandex.  I encourage you to check it out.

All of my complaints with the main rulebook are not for game balance but because they're not logical.  For example, it never made sense to me that you can still jink even if you didn't move.  The way I would write it, your models would automatically gain a jink save as long as they moved far enough from their starting position in the movement phase (like how Corsair shields work on Hornets).  This would encourage players to take advantage of their speed, but force them to take into account where they end up on the table (kind of how a player's flyer's minimum speed can be problematic).

Or other illogical things such as... I don't know... multiple grenades! Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Thu Jun 23 2016, 15:46

Wow this thread has exploded overnight! Great stuff here, also to be honest I more or less thought that my feeling was pretty much just that, and not such a stark reality. We really don't have that many units.

Another thought I'd like to throw out is - is it even necessary to have a new edition to get a new codex? I mean with the new FAQ 7th looks pretty decent if you ask me. I'm not sure we need a major overhaul (of the game).

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Thu Jun 23 2016, 17:28

@Tounguekutter wrote:

Or other illogical things such as... I don't know... multiple grenades! Evil or Very Mad

At some point gameplay and balance trumps realism. If you want multiple grenades to be thrown in a turn then they should cost 100pts per squad because throwing 10 krak grenades after movement is significantly better than firing one krak missile while stationary.

The reason we need a new edition is that the game has been FAQ'd to death alongside having it's entire design philosophy turned upside down. Whats the point of buying a rulebook or codex if half the rules have changed? I mean grenades were simplified and streamlined, haywire taken away from wyches because they were being used in a role they weren't intended for, then the ethos changed and eldar got to keep them on swooping hawks (doing the exact same out-of-role shenanigans wyches used to do) and then they flipped again and ruled that only one nade can be used per round. 40k Has always been full of this flip flopping and due to the time it takes them to get codex's out it shows in there always being some codex's that can't compete in the current meta and some that dominate it. Because non of them were designed with the same game in mind. The DE and chaos codex's are designed for s different game of 40k than we have today. The amount of FAQ required to make the game work is astonishing. There should be a solid core rulebook, codex's or other faction media built with that in mind and a minimum FAQ to address things that slipped through the cracks. just look at the thread on the new starter set. There's a debate as to whether an Archon in a raider can actually draw line of site from a vehicle. That's ridiculous! It shows how sloppy the rules are for this game.

I think AoS has shown GW where they should go with their games. The rule-less, pointless beer-and-preztels game doesn't work. But formations and building block army creation does. It's a lot easier to add to the game with formations and rules developed to fit them into the game than it is to try and salvage a game where half the factions were built with an eye to nerfing the factions whilst the other half were built for the buff meta of Decurion bonus' and free stuff everywhere.

To fix the DE now would require either a new codex that completely changed them up (not likely to happen as the current one is less than 2 years old and is as far as GW is concerned current to the game edition), a new supplement that tried to re-write the faction (a Wyches book in the same vein as the Covens book or a campaign book) which would make obsolete the codex or so many FAQ's and random formation rules thrown out from various sources that most people will struggle to collect them all together.

What the game really needs is all the codex's, dataslates etc migrating into digital format (print them too for ease of access at the table) and use that to build an army from rather than an outdated codex, a couple campaign/source books, a couple issues of White Dwarf, some WW exclusive nonsense and scraps of paper picked up out of limited-release box sets. This is such a departure from GW is used to doing that it'd require a new edition to marry it alongside the rules.

You can hope for some cool formations from somewhere to make DE competitive but that doesn't address the problem of Archons melting to anything STR 6. Or how to deal with a codex where half our units are close combat and lack the means to either deliver themselves into combat safely and reliably in a meta all about shooting. Or what our army is meant to be when half a dozen other factions can deepstrike better than us, are faster than us, hit harder than us, have better tricks than us and that all have access to a phase of the game we can't interact with. 40k works ok for now, if you play certain factions. Beyond that it's an uphill struggle.

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Fri Jun 24 2016, 09:21

Talking about a Dark Eldar fix, I hadn't really followed the ascension of the Corsairs in the updated Imperial Armour book until recently. They have a very cool template for Dark Eldar to follow. Reckless Abandon bonus movements, outflanking scatter laser venoms, Jetbikes with Objective secured and multiple weapon loadouts all come to mind.

The best thing I've learned about is the Multi-Phase Key Generator, which Uses a WWP marker that I can disappear into and out of through the Ongoing Reserves mechanic. Awesome! A little more access to some of the Eldar armoury and it is remarkable how much more destructive in the shooting phase a Dark Eldar force becomes.

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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Wed Jun 29 2016, 05:33

This has (somewhat sadly) become the role for forgeworld; throwing out stop gap replacements for GW's unplayable but long lived codices.  I fear the corsair release is a sign that a new dark eldar codex is no where in the near future.  I say this as someone who previously switched from chaos marines to renegades and heretics... only to see the forgeworld rules updated and improved repeatedly, while the chaos marines are still pretty much unplayable 4 years in.

This brings me to a larger point about units and forgeworld though (which sort of gets back on topic).  The dark kin had a grand total of 3 forgeworld units (2 now since the raven is gone), while some armies can field dozens.  Codex marines have half a dozen forgeworld fliers alone.

As for effectiveness... The tantalus and reaper were debatable in efficiency and the raven was like a bad joke, but on the whole forgeworld models are some of the most effective in the game.  A single fire raptor, sicaran, or land raider achilles for example, can make an absolute mess of a dark eldar player's plans.  The corsairs (which are technically all forgeworld), however get to benefit from some of the impressive eldar forgeworld units such as hornets and warp hunters.


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PostSubject: Re: Do we have fewer units than other armies?   Mon Jul 04 2016, 08:29

@Squidmaster wrote:
I had a REALLY boring morning, so I did some working.
So there we are with our 24 units, which in slightly more than Grey Knights, and only four less than Tau.
Most armies, you're right, have far more units than us.

You miss Kabalite Trueborn and Wyches Bloodbrides (DE Elite is 6). I know there's no model, but Tau Firewarriors Breacher are basically Firewarriors with different weapons, which is the same as KT and BB.

Anyway I hope in a codex update or powerup, but IF 40k have to change, I hope they won't change (as an army) Dark Eldar.
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Do we have fewer units than other armies?
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