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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 22:08

@1++ wrote:
I do see two issues; 1) if you don't play with an Archon now you will need to pay his tax and 2) by the wording, I don't think the Archon (or his Venom) get Preferred Enemy 0.o

The Archon doesn't but his Venom 100% does. They are separate units.

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Arthax the Chosen
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 22:59

Hi all guys, i'm new of this forum but i read it daily for a long time.
I was reading in the BRB that is enough to have "at least One model" to get preferred enemy to others, so give at the archon a unit of Sslith or blasterborn, all in a raider and his tax will make sense.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 23:11

@Arthax the Chosen wrote:
Hi all guys, i'm new of this forum but i read it daily for a long time.
I was reading in the BRB that is enough to have "at least One model" to get preferred enemy to others, so give at the archon a unit of Sslith or blasterborn, all in a raider and his tax will make sense.

The way I read it the rule is not conveyed to the Archon, as such he cannot forward PE by joining a unit himself. After all the rule applies to "all other units in the formation".

Edit: Btw. does anybody know for sure if Trueborn also count as Kabalite Warriors? Seeing Trueborn and Warriors on the same datasheet, at least I would say so.


Last edited by The Strange Dark One on Wed Jun 22 2016, 23:16; edited 2 times in total
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Arthax the Chosen
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 23:15

You are right...
So take a venom as DT the only way to optimize archon cost

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 23:42

The Raider also doesn't have to be taken as a DT, so you could actually squeeze two Raiders out of the formation.
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Adma
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 23:48

Or two venoms... ::rubs hands together maliciously::
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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 23:57

Well, its much better than a 12 inch bubble of hatred. thats for sure Very Happy

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 00:09

Yes you absolutely can upgrade them to trueborn, or else no unit upgrades would be possible for formations. The problem stems from our using short hand in terms of how we do list building, and people failing to properly understand what is actually going on. In reality there is not actually any such base Elite unit called Kabalite Trueborn. Whenever you buy Trueborn you actually bought a unit of FOC Troops Called Kabalite Warriors, as well as a unit wide upgrade that gives them all Sybarite statlines, and changes their FOC classification to Elite. This occurs Any time list building measures occur for Trueborn or Bloodbrides. Within Detachments this restriction becomes relevant, in formations it is not, and here is whole crux of the issue: Formations do not care about FOC slots.

TL;DR: If the trueborn upgrade were not possible the rules wouldn't allow any upgrades to be.
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 00:24

@Adma wrote:
Or two venoms... ::rubs hands together maliciously::

Yes, of course....

So now could another unit start the game embarked on the formations Raider....and benefit from PE?

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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 00:27

i would like an official faq for this formation as to the following:

can we buy dedicated transports for the archon and kabalites?
if so do they benefit the PE?
can the kabalites be upgraded to trueborn and still get PE?
can the archon join a squad and thus get PE?
can the archon point to an enemy unit from inside a transport?

rules cant be too clearly written

also reminds me of the kabalite raiding party, is it possible there to upgrade to trueborn?

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 00:32

Yes.

It's cut and dry. If Formations are allowed to take upgrades, and the unit does not have a listed restriction stipulating a specific upgrade must or can not be taken (Chaos lord needing terminator armour, and farseer needing jetbike for example) then all upgrades are permissable.

I do not under any circumstances want a clarification for just us. That's how we wound up with the 2015 Shadowfield ruling. You don't seem to realize that to answer your question with any answer other than yes breaks large quantities of already established and liked formations because it can't be justified with any other explanation than that formations are completely unupgradable. That would piss of marine and Tau players, and we can't have that again.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 01:51

@Count Adhemar wrote:
The Archon doesn't but his Venom 100% does. They are separate units.

Of course if he joins the unit that he has conferred preferred enemy onto, then he will benefit from it too (one model in a squad and all that). Which is endearingly circular, but functional.

A sybarite is 18 points, the Archon is +42 on top of that. If you normally run neither then +52 points over a basic warrior for a conditional preferred enemy buff and a couple of extra wounds on a T3 guy.

Preferred enemy increases the chance of causing a wound (before save) to a valid target from 33.3% to 45.4%, so in a unit with 10 splinter shots you will over time inflict an extra 1.2 wounds per salvo, the equivalent output of 3.6 extra warriors. 3.6 warriors would cost you 28.8 points. So for the warriors by themselves it's not particularly cost effective.

The venom, however, improves by a fraction of 0.36 of another venom, equivalent to 23.5 points.

Taken together, the improvement PE gives to the venom (bought for the Archon) and the warriors is ~52 points. So the cost seems fair, so long as you take the extra venom. The reavers and raider add a little extra gravy on top, to help balance out the extra wounds you'd have if you'd spent the points on more dudes.

So on the whole not bad. Remember, you don't have to give your Archon gear.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 02:25

@doriii wrote:
i would like an official faq for this formation as to the following:

can we buy dedicated transports for the archon and kabalites?
if so do they benefit the PE?
can the archon join a squad and thus get PE?

Yes to these. The BRB and the Codex grant permissions for these, and no rules within the formation rescind or restrict them.

Quote :
can the archon point to an enemy unit from inside a transport?

Yes. Provided the transport has fire points or is open topped, the Archon can still draw line of sight (which is all the ability requires). If the ability also specified a range to or from the Archon, then it would not work under the current FAQs.

Quote :
can the kabalites be upgraded to trueborn and still get PE?

This one is the only point that is in contention, to my mind. I'd argue yes, though. Warriors are the base entry, and upgrading them to Trueborn is an upgrade for that unit.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 05:54

No - it cant be used when embarked. Firepoints give no permission to use them outside of conducting a shooting attack

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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 09:45

Quote :
can the kabalites be upgraded to trueborn and still get PE?
In the FAQ for armored mon-keigh GW gave the thumbs up for upgrading the mandatory captain in the demi-company to a chapter master after buying the captain as part of the formation. So that means unit upgrades happens after buying the unit as a part of a formation. I would assume that all the formation bonuses for the demi-company still apply to the chapter master.

Quote :
No - it cant be used when embarked. Firepoints give no permission to use them outside of conducting a shooting attack
The archon giving the other units PE is not an ability he is using or an attack of any kind. The player picks a unit that the archon can draw line of sight to. That would work fine inside an open topped  transport since you can fire from one and you can not fire at something you can't draw LOS to.

What I am wondering a little about is if extra dedicated transports ( venoms ) would be a part of this formation.
Are they the same unit, or part of the same unit they have been purchased for, or are they a different unit with the same FOC role but don't take a FOC slot. If they are the same then how would one argue that they are a different unit in the case of not being the same unit as the archon when purchased for the archon?

EDIT: forgot one quote
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 09:58

@Scrz wrote:
What I am wondering a little about is if extra dedicated transports ( venoms ) would be a part of this formation.

That one is actually 100% clear. You can purchase a dedicated transport for any unit that is part of a formation unless the formation rules specifically forbid it. They then form part of the formation and benefit from any special rules that apply to units in that formation.

Unless you want to tell all those SM players out there that all their drop pods, rhinos and razors don't get objective secured anymore Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 09:59

The formatiion doesn't say that it restricts dedicated transports.

RAI/GW is probably wanting us to go 9 Kabs with Archon onboard,.backed up by Reavers....

What I want to know is that can a non formation unit that is embarked upon the formation Raider also get PE?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 11:07

@1++ wrote:
What I want to know is that can a non formation unit that is embarked upon the formation Raider also get PE?

No, it cannot. Only units from the formation get the PE bonus. Embarking on a formation transport does not in any way make you part of the formation.

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that embarking on a transport makes the transport and passengers into a single unit. It does not. They remain separate units at all times and do not benefit (directly) from any special rules. If a passenger has Shrouded for example, it does not confer onto a transport that he is embarked upon.

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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 11:18

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Scrz wrote:
What I am wondering a little about is if extra dedicated transports ( venoms ) would be a part of this formation.

That one is actually 100% clear. You can purchase a dedicated transport for any unit that is part of a formation unless the formation rules specifically forbid it. They then form part of the formation and benefit from any special rules that apply to units in that formation.

Unless you want to tell all those SM players out there that all their drop pods, rhinos and razors don't get objective secured anymore Smile

Thanks! That is great news.
Now that you mention it I actually would like to be able to tell the space marine players exactly that. Just to see the look on their faces.

@1++ wrote:
What I want to know is that can a non formation unit that is embarked upon the formation Raider also get PE?
I have never heard of vehicle transports automatically conferring formation bonuses to their non dedicated occupants.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 11:23

@Count Adhemar wrote:
If a passenger has Shrouded for example, it does not confer onto a transport that he is embarked upon.
If only they did count as the same unit, the humble Mandrake could jump in a Raider and be a decent gun platform.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 11:59

@Scrz wrote:
Quote :
No - it cant be used when embarked. Firepoints give no permission to use them outside of conducting a shooting attack
The archon giving the other units PE is not an ability he is using or an attack of any kind. The player picks a unit that the archon can draw line of sight to. That would work fine inside an open topped  transport since you can fire from one and you can not fire at something you can't draw LOS to.

Sorry but you are incorrect.

Open topped says - Open topped vehicles do not have specific firepoints. Instead, all passengers in an OTT can fire, measuring range and LoS from any point on the hull of the vehicle.

You are only given permission to have all passengers fire from the vehicle - and then it specifies how to resolve range and LoS. You have no permission to simply use the same rule for LoS.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 12:04

@Massaen wrote:
@Scrz wrote:
Quote :
No - it cant be used when embarked. Firepoints give no permission to use them outside of conducting a shooting attack
The archon giving the other units PE is not an ability he is using or an attack of any kind. The player picks a unit that the archon can draw line of sight to. That would work fine inside an open topped  transport since you can fire from one and you can not fire at something you can't draw LOS to.

Sorry but you are incorrect.

Open topped says - Open topped vehicles do not have specific firepoints. Instead, all passengers in an OTT can fire, measuring range and LoS from any point on the hull of the vehicle.

You are only given permission to have all passengers fire from the vehicle - and then it specifies how to resolve range and LoS. You have no permission to simply use the same rule for LoS.

I'm torn on this one but I think you're probably correct RAW. This is probably the one area of the formation rules that would benefit from a FAQ. Of course, you can simply have the Archon join a minimum unit of Mandrakes and park him in cover somewhere with good LOS whilst his Venom scoots around shooting stuff separately.

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Archon Vitcus
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 13:25

Yeah I've seen a scan and all these people saying blaster born, sorry it specifically say one unit of warriors

1 archon
1 unit of kabalite warriors
1 raider
1 unit of reavers

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Such is the power at their disposal that, with but a simple gesture an archon can order the swift demise of those that displease them. At the start of each friendly pick an enemy unit within line of sight of the archon. All other units from the purge coterie have the preferred enemy special rule against the unit you picked until the start of your next turn.

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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 13:57

@Jimsolo wrote:
@doriii wrote:
i would like an official faq for this formation as to the following:

can we buy dedicated transports for the archon and kabalites?
if so do they benefit the PE?
can the archon join a squad and thus get PE?

Yes to these.  The BRB and the Codex grant permissions for these, and no rules within the formation rescind or restrict them.

Quote :
can the archon point to an enemy unit from inside a transport?

Yes.  Provided the transport has fire points or is open topped, the Archon can still draw line of sight (which is all the ability requires).  If the ability also specified a range to or from the Archon, then it would not work under the current FAQs.  

Quote :
can the kabalites be upgraded to trueborn and still get PE?

This one is the only point that is in contention, to my mind.  I'd argue yes, though.  Warriors are the base entry, and upgrading them to Trueborn is an upgrade for that unit.

i dont get it, the rules state what units are a part of the formation. then we come and add 2 venoms that aint in the mix

also 'trueborn' arent 'kabalite warriors'
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Thu Jun 23 2016, 14:09

@doriii wrote:
i dont get it, the rules state what units are a part of the formation. then we come and add 2 venoms that aint in the mix

also 'trueborn' arent 'kabalite warriors'

Dedicated transports and Trueborn are both listed as "Options" for Kabalite Warriors. You can therefore take the required one unit of Warriors and upgrade it to a unit of Trueborn. If you are not allowed to do so then, for example, the units of Tactical Squads in a Gladius consist of 4 Space Marines and 1 Space Marine Sergeant with no special or heavy weapons, no additional marines, no Veteran Sergeant, no wargear on the Sergeant and no transports (even free ones).

There's also the question of, if you take a transport for a unit in a formation and that transport is not part of the formation, what detachment is it actually part of? The answer would have to be "None", and therefore your army is unbound.

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