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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Tue Jun 21 2016, 23:36

@jdmflcl wrote:
PE is actually quite strong, particularly if you have a SC Kabbie or Trueborn upgrade, although this is somewhat countered by the presence of splinter racks on the raider.

Normal math vs a random target is 4/6 * 1/2 = 33% chance of wounding per splinter shot.
Revised math vs a random target is (4/6 + 1/6*4/6) * (1/2 + 1/6*1/2) = 45.37% chance of wounding per splinter shot.

Assuming 9 man kabalite squad (1 sc) on rackless raider w/ archon shooting at tactical marines in RF range.

* No Formation = 2.420 unsaved wounds + 1.33 wounds from dissie raider.
* Formation = 3.327 unsaved wounds + 1.33 wounds from dissie raider.

Confirmation on trueborn being allowed?

The problem is that it is all quite gimmicky to make it work. First, you need an Archon to babysit your gunboats and the uses of an Archon are limited to begin with.

Moreover, gunboats with Kabals need to be in rapid-fire range, otherwise using Venoms is simply more effective to begin with. I also think it is only worth it when it is used on rackless Raiders, but in doing so you limit your target choices.

The advantage is that you can do a lot of damage to a single unit but if your Archon goes away, so does this advantage.

I just don't see how this is going to replace my Venoms.

Edit: However, if Trueborn were allowed that could turn into an entirely different matter. PE on Blasters? That could actually make them worthwhile. Archon + WWP + Boat of PE Blasterborn (or 2?), why not? I really need to do the Mathhammer on this one.
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jdmflcl
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 02:00

Here is the mathhammer on a 1x blaster archon, 2x SC, 3x Blaster Raider sans racks w/ nightshields

Shooting @ Mehreens.

No Formation
* 12 SC Shots * 4/6 hits * 1/2 wounds = 4 wounds
* 3 trueborn blaster shots * 4/6 hits * 5/6 wounds = 1.667 wounds
* 3 Dissie shots * 4/6 hits * 4/6 wounds = 1.33 wounds
* 1 Archon blaster shot * 5/6 hits * 5/6 wounds = .6944 wounds
* All in = 7.694 wounds

Formation

* 12 SC shots * (4/6 + 1/6*4/6) * (1/2 wounds + 1/6 * 1/2) = 5.44 wounds
* 3 trueborn blaster shorts * (4/6 + 1/6*4/6) * (5/6 wounds + 1/6*5/6) = 2.268 wounds
* 3 Dissie shots * 4/6 hits * 4/6 wounds = 1.33 wounds (I don't believe PE is conferred to DT)
* 1 Archon blaster shot * 5/6 hits * 5/6 wounds = .6944 wounds
* All in = 9.724 wounds

Not bad IF allowed @ 275 points. Unfortunately this is when you realize our CWE buddies get 48" Large D blasts on a 5 hull point hover tank for approx. the same points cost.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 02:33

PE thats it? ................ Welp looks like DE is getting the CSM treatment now.


Yep Im sticking to Corsairs now.

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hekatrixxy
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 07:06

To be fair nobody should have expected a formation from a small start collecting box to be the thing that suddenly brings DE up to the level of Eldar.

If you are an existing player and the formation doesn't fit your play style then that's fine. Simply don't use it. The box still offers a discount on buying the models separately if you need them, especially with non GW store discounts.

For new players, with the possible exception of the Archon, everything else is a decent unit that a DE player can reasonably make use of as they grow their army. The Raider can be used for transporting a unit of Grots, the Warriors can be split into two five man squads and paired with a couple of Venoms. The Reavers with cluster caltrops and/or heat lance I think few people would object to being useful. The Archon can be used as a counts as model to bring a better/cheaper HQ. There is still plenty of value in the box even if the formation is not great.

It could have easily been worse and just contained an Archon, Wyches and a Raider.

As for the future of DE, I think the guys on splintermind put it best. A new codex is unlikely any time soon. DE merging with CWE into a single codex seems to go against the current pattern of more codexes than ever before by splitting out smaller factions, e.g. Harlequins, into their own codex. A realistic thing to hope for would be a campaign book that brings a decent number of formations with useful special rules.

Just my two cents.

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jdmflcl
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 07:10

Doom of Mymeara IS the answer for DE players looking for a better dex. Shadowfields, Jetbikes, Poison Weaponry, and LD shenanigans w/ a healthy dose of D support.
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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 07:22

@jdmflcl wrote:
Doom of Mymeara IS the answer for DE players looking for a better dex. Shadowfields, Jetbikes, Poison Weaponry, and LD shenanigans w/ a healthy dose of D support.
But why would I want to have a good chance at a win?
Isn't the best part of playing DE the parts where you use your army as perfectly as possible and pull wins against armies that should be able to crush you?
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 08:18

Not too bad. I am already using blasterborn with a WWP archon in a raider. This gives them a nice little boost, AND it frees up a fast attack slot from the CAD that I would have used on the bike unit. Which means room for more bike units.
It also frees up the allied detachment IF you are taking dark eldar allies to get the archon with the armor of misery.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 09:49

@hekatrixxy wrote:
To be fair nobody should have expected a formation from a small start collecting box to be the thing that suddenly brings DE up to the level of Eldar.

If you are an existing player and the formation doesn't fit your play style then that's fine. Simply don't use it. The box still offers a discount on buying the models separately if you need them, especially with non GW store discounts.

For new players, with the possible exception of the Archon, everything else is a decent unit that a DE player can reasonably make use of as they grow their army. The Raider can be used for transporting a unit of Grots, the Warriors can be split into two five man squads and paired with a couple of Venoms. The Reavers with cluster caltrops and/or heat lance I think few people would object to being useful. The Archon can be used as a counts as model to bring a better/cheaper HQ. There is still plenty of value in the box even if the formation is not great.

It could have easily been worse and just contained an Archon, Wyches and a Raider.

As for the future of DE, I think the guys on splintermind put it best. A new codex is unlikely any time soon. DE merging with CWE into a single codex seems to go against the current pattern of more codexes than ever before by splitting out smaller factions, e.g. Harlequins, into their own codex. A realistic thing to hope for would be a campaign book that brings a decent number of formations with useful special rules.

Just my two cents.

I wasnt hoping for a fix, but something just enough to get me to think "I can make this work" Tempested got something just like that and so did Nids and necrons (tho necrons didnt need it).

There is so much difference between the starter sets that is proof how unbalance the rules team truly are.

PE and Hated within 12" vs unlimited DS men or unlimited ObjSec DS units etc..

If DE had something like "May Jink but doesnt count as being Jink for the purpose of shooting" or "Free WWP and DS doesnt scatter". That isnt over kill on a 270ish formation and gives you idea's/options like 1/2 the other formations.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 09:54

@stevethedestroyeofworlds wrote:
@jdmflcl wrote:
Doom of Mymeara IS the answer for DE players looking for a better dex. Shadowfields, Jetbikes, Poison Weaponry, and LD shenanigans w/ a healthy dose of D support.
But why would I want to have a good chance at a win?
Isn't the best part of playing DE the parts where you use your army as perfectly as possible and pull wins against armies that should be able to crush you?

This is how I felt for a bit..... but with a HUGE lack of Anti: Tank, GMC, Super Heavy, Air etc... with very limited units to play with and with limited things to do during turns.

Corsairs IMO are even more DE than DE and that is so sad, they even have Pirate Politics, the flavour/feel of playing corsairs are much more fun, you can even play venom spam if you wish still.

Having the same Upgrades but cheaper and better WWP's (IMO) just makes me hate playing base DE even more so now than before.

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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 11:59

The imbalance between Start Collecting rules is plain to see. Somebody at GW was just coming up with rules that sounded fluffy (they all make sense thematically) but from a play perspective they're pretty laughable. They don't need to be super balanced but come on, at least try! Necrons got an awesome rule to go with their already awesome rules. Deldar get a rule that makes you scratch your head to work out how it isn't completely useless. If you're taking splinter weapons on those kabalites then you should be taking a splinter rack on the raider which makes the PE utterly useless. So the only alternative is to take non-splinter weapons to make this formation work and that means blasterborn. The only way this formation functions is to upgrade the kabalites and go this route, otherwise the rule is useless. This could have been alleviated simply by allowing either unit in the formation to use the PE rule. Sure the Reavers are likely to be way out of sight of the Archon but should you choose to keep them close as an escort they'd be pretty decent with PE charging into combat. That's all the formation needs to be good - allowing either unit to use the rule giving the Deldar player options, something the faction lacks severely.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 16:13

@Rokuro wrote:
I actually got to take an "inofficial pre-release" look at both the new formations' rules today at the store:

Dark Eldar
On each of his turns, the controling Pplayer can nominate a unit the Archon from this formation can draw a line of sight to. For the duration of this turn, the Kabalite Warriors from this formation have Prefered Enemy against that unit.

... meh? Neutral

Your opinions?

I just saw a scan of the datasheet. It gives PE to all other units in the formation, not just the kabalite warriors.

So that also means rerolled hits and wounds for the reavers in the formation (which, I assume, means rerolled wounds on HoW attacks). It could also mean rerolled hits and wounds on a venom if you take one as a dedicated transport for the Archon.
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mika
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 16:18

Even better, you can take a venom for the archon and for the kabalites, 2 venoms with PE are not bad at all.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 16:19

Would a Venom still be an option for the Archon? Usually Formations are those units only, and don;t allow for the extra transport options. Or am I wrong on that?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 16:22

@Squidmaster wrote:
Would a Venom still be an option for the Archon? Usually Formations are those units only, and don;t allow for the extra transport options. Or am I wrong on that?

If a formation includes a unit with an option for a dedicated transport then you can take that transport unless the formation specifically forbids it. Otherwise the Gladius would be pretty pointless!

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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 16:50

This is nice, makes the rule worthwhile for sure. I don't think you could upgrade the Archon with a Venom and have PE apply to that because the Archon himself is the unit and the transport is just an upgrade (he can't apply the PE to himself). Would the raider get the benefit of the PE too? Would it transfer from the kabalites to the transport like some other rules do?

The question remains whether or not you can upgrade the kabalites to trueborn (the formation would have to rule that out specifically to disallow it) and whether you can split those 10 kabalites into two units or just take half of them. If it says one unit of kabalites then it should be legal to take them MSU instead of the full 10. And it should be legal to upgrade to trueborn.

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 17:03

As the formation includes the Raider in it's list it isn't being taken as a dedicated transport but as a unit, thus wouldn't it get the PE? Unless the rule states infantry and jetbikes I don't see why it would be excluded as a unit. A raider after all can be taken by itself as a Fast Attack choice in a force organization chart and isn't limited as just a dedicated transport.
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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 17:32

Hmmmmmm
I might actually use this formation depending on how it is exactly.

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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 19:03

Ok, link to a pic of the rules.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/06/40k-eldar-dark-eldar-formations-spotted.html

all units get PE, not just warriors. It is my firm understanding that if a formation doesn't explicitly state that no other options can be taken then you build your unit from the codex rules.

given that and without trueborn for now. 2 venom, 1 raider, 3+ bikes, 5-10 warriors. if we min it we get:

12 cannon shots, 7-8 rifle shots, 3 disintegrator shots, pistol shot, + close combat all for 348pts with one caltrop upgrade.

I don't think that is a bad investment.

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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 19:39

good news for Dark Eldar? what's goin on, am i high and dreaming?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 19:41

@Demantiae wrote:
This is nice, makes the rule worthwhile for sure. I don't think you could upgrade the Archon with a Venom and have PE apply to that because the Archon himself is the unit and the transport is just an upgrade (he can't apply the PE to himself). Would the raider get the benefit of the PE too? Would it transfer from the kabalites to the transport like some other rules do?

The Venom is a separate unit so it would benefit from PE, as would the Raider and any other vehicle purchased as a DT for the Kabalites.

This formation isn't actually bad but it's a shame you have to pay the Archon tax.

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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 19:49

@Count Adhemar wrote:

This formation isn't actually bad but it's a shame you have to pay the Archon tax.
You can try to minimize the tax by just putting him in a venom and giving him a blaster. Still more costly than I would like, but high BS PE blaster shots aren't the worst thing ever
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 20:19

Well first off I think the rule is very fluffy and in theme.

I use all of these units in my army and for games where I don't use my CorpseThief it will be a great force multiplier in limited source tournaments. Will I even get to use the rule? Probably not as I always WWP my Archon in so the earliest I would be able to use it would be turn 3 so perhaps a more passive rule would have been better for me.

Is it underwhelming? Yes.
Could they have done better? Yes.
Will I use it? More than likely for above said reasons.

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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 20:32

No minimum range? Just within LOS of the Archon? & the Archon doesn't have to be able to see the unit it gives PE to, just the target?

I'd assumed at least some sort of within 12" etc.

Let the BattleScribing commence Smile
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 21:19

PE is actually a pretty decent buff for our units. By my maths it increases the number of wounds caused by 42.5%, which is not too shabby. If you max out the potential of the unit by buying a Venom for the Archon, another for the Kabalites and getting some more Reavers they actually put out some good firepower.

It's by no means overwhelming but it's not too shabby either.

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PostSubject: Re: Start Collecting! Dark Eldar incoming!   Wed Jun 22 2016, 21:55

Absolutely agree the rule is very fluffy and I love it for that! Nice one GW! (serious)

I also don't think it's all that crap.....we should be overwhelming enemies with multiple units of ours anyway and I sure don't have an issue with rerolling 1s on shooting a Disintegrator, Rapid Fire Splinter Weapons and Hammer of Wrathing into a squad of marines that just exited a drop pod. Infact, F#%K YEAH!!

I do see two issues; 1) if you don't play with an Archon now you will need to pay his tax and 2) by the wording, I don't think the Archon (or his Venom) get Preferred Enemy 0.o

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