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 Trying really hard to find a place for wyches

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Amheir-ka
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PostSubject: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Fri Jun 10 2016, 05:56

Here's what I've come up with. It's either this or run a bunch of 5 man squads in venoms but i really can't see them doing anything but dying horribly. I figured why not just sink more points into them and hope for the best. Think it'll work? Have another way to work them in? I'd love suggestions.

Succubus: The Armour of Misery; archite glaive; haywire grenades 115
Haemonculus: Scissorhand; webway portal 115

5 Kabalite Warriors: blaster 55
Venom: splinter cannon 65
10 Kabalite Warriors: splinter cannon 95
Raider: dark lance; splinter racks 75

10 Bloodbrides: 3× 2 hydra gauntlets; Syren (agoniser; haywire grenades) 185
Raider: enhanced aethersails 60
7 Grotesques: Aberration (scissorhand) 265
4 Incubi: Klaivex 90
Venom: splinter cannon 65

5 Scourges: 4× haywire blaster 120
6 Reavers: 2× blaster; 2× cluster caltrops 146
5 Beastmasters: Beastmaster; 4× Khymerae 50

1,501 points

Also, I'm not sure what to drop to get past that 1 leftover point. They really should let you round at the end.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Fri Jun 10 2016, 06:07

Welcome to The Dark City!

It's difficult to decide where to begin...Let's start with you! Very Happy

Do you already own all of these models, or are you trying to put a list together to decide what to buy, or what? What's your situation?

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Amheir-ka
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Fri Jun 10 2016, 06:27

Already have most of them all built and painted with the exception of the grotesques. I'll post pictures later. I've been playing Dark Angels for around 8 years now and am up for a bit of a challenge with dark eldar. I tend to get the models I like and sort the rest out later hence the hodge podge of units I have and my desperation to keep the wyches in. It was a much easier way of doing things when I was playing a SM army.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Fri Jun 10 2016, 16:48

If you HAVE to use wyches, I'd use them in small squads of 5 to get access to more Hekatrixes, who are your main damage dealers with agonizers. Don't bother with any of the other wych weapons, and don't use them as bloodbrides. The extra attack isn't worth both them AND their transport losing the "Objective Secured" rule.

Other tidbits of advice regarding your list and DE in general:

1 - Khymera are better in larger groups

2 - Grotesques are better in smaller groups, and far more versatile if you give the aberation an agonizer.

3 - Kabalite warriors aren't worth taking in groups of 10 in raiders any more, since the raider can't jink without them snap firing, per the new FAQ. Keep them in groups of 5, regardless of whether you put them in a raider or venom.

4 - Upgrades are often points-traps. I normally wouldn't upgrade weapons on the warrior squads, and instead would use the points elsewhere, to put more models on the table.

5 - You need anti-tank. Ravagers are probably the best anti-tank DE have access to at the moment, so if you want to stay pure DE, I'd grab a couple ravagers.

6 - Pretty much always try to run your non-covens DE in a combined arms detachment. I know the formations/detachments in the book have cool names, but those cool names come at great cost. Objective secured is a game-winning rule.

Good luck, and let us know if you have any other questions! Looking forward to see what else you come up with! Wink

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Amheir-ka
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Sat Jun 11 2016, 00:38

The Khymera are meant to be overwatch bait that follow the wyches since pretty much every 6 rolled is a dead wych. I was thinking keep the unit a small points investment for that sort of activity. You're use for the wyches sounds better

I hear you on the smaller units of grots, I should probably split them up into two so I can take advantage of the grotesquerie formation.

Think I really need more anti tank? between my scourges, grots, reavers and warriors all with some form of anti tank i figured I'd be set.

I'll rewrite tonight and see what happens. Thanks for the input.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Sat Jun 11 2016, 01:33

Welcome aboard, to the true kin!

@Amheir-ka wrote:
It's either this or run a bunch of 5 man squads in venoms but i really can't see them doing anything but dying horribly.

Believe me, Dark Eldar units can and will die. You can't hide behind T4 and 3+ saves anymore. But you can hide behind target saturation, and that's how Dark Eldar play best these days. Multiple small units (MSU) in venoms is how Dark Eldar compete; a typical list has anywhere between 2 and 6 units of Kabalites in Venoms with 2 Splinter Cannons, sometimes with an upgraded weapon, but usually just barebones.

@Amheir-ka wrote:
The Khymera are meant to be overwatch bait that follow the wyches since pretty much every 6 rolled is a dead wych. I was thinking keep the unit a small points investment for that sort of activity.

Remember that Khymera can literally be in a 1 model, 10 pt unit. So if you ever thought to exclusively use them to bait overwatch, throwing multiple individual units on 1 Khymera in each of them is a very real possibility. This ties into the MSU theme I detailed above. Because our HQ and Troop tax is pretty cheap and useful, buying more detachments is actually not a bad move either. Why restrict yourself to only 3 Fast Attack options? Some players go extreme, with multiple CADs/RSRs with anywhere between 6 and 18 units of exactly 1 Khymera.

Especially with fast, single model units, it's a nightmare. 5 marines shooting at a single Khymera is completely overkill, but if they don't, he charges in and negates all their overwatch against your next Khymera and/or Wyches! Also, better to have 2 units of 1 charging the same enemy in case one fails the charge.

@Amheir-ka wrote:
I hear you on the smaller units of grots, I should probably split them up into two so I can take advantage of the grotesquerie formation.

Yes, the best number is exactly 2 units of 3 Grots a piece, in their Grotesquerie. They deal more damage when their numbers are lower due to Rampage proccing more often. It's weird, but the unit actually is better at their job with fewer models (I know right). Also, the Covens PfP chart is several times better for them than the regular Dark Eldar one is, and they also get that free Grot Chart in that formation too that pumps them up even more.

Usually, Grots really excel in Raiders, unlike Kabalites, and arguable also unlike Wyches; give the Raiders you bought to the Grots, and you won't be disappointed.

@Amheir-ka wrote:
Think I really need more anti tank? between my scourges, grots, reavers and warriors all with some form of anti tank i figured I'd be set.

It seems like enough, but most of it is melee so you might not be able to deal with vehicles early enough. As for the ranged components, maybe you haven't worked with Dark Eldar enough to see how terrible their anti tank can be in small numbers. We can't get twin linked anywhere... XD so our Blasters and Haywire Blasters are trash without lots of redundancy to pick up when we inevitable roll a 1 to hit.

Unlike Meltaguns, which can either reliably land a penetrating hit, and from there have a decent chance to one shot any vehicle, the Blaster is only Ap2 and doesn't get the extra d6 melta die. And it costs more. And is on a T3 model with a 4+ or 5+ save..

On the other hand, Haywire Blasters ARE good. They will reliably tank out land vehicles with glancing hits, they're on mobile platforms and they are also cheaper than Blasters. Their biggest weakness is that vehicles are all they're good against. You can't double up with the weapon to beat good armour saves, wound MCs or instant death characters, like you could do with a Lascannon or Blaster or Melta. So if you buy 3 units of Haywire Scourges and end up against Tyranids... yeah...

Dark Lances are decent as they can reach out early in the game to deal with vehicles; that's where the Ravager BetraytheWorld spoke of comes in. They may not be as powerful as Lascannons, but they are more mobile, and they serve our purposes if and when we buy enough of them.

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Amheir-ka
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Sat Jun 11 2016, 07:14

Thanks for the reality check, that was some great advice. It a completely different thought process than I'm used to. Here's my redo

Succubus: The Armour of Misery; archite glaive; haywire grenades 115
Haemonculus: Scissorhand; webway portal 115

5 Kabalite Warriors 40
Venom: splinter cannon 65
5 Wyches: Hekatrix (agoniser, haywire grenades) 90
Venom: splinter cannon 65

3 Grotesques 105
4 Incubi: Klaivex 90
Venom: splinter cannon 65
3 Grotesques 105
3 Mandrakes 36

6 Reavers: 2× cluster caltrops 126
5 Scourges: 4× haywire blaster 120

Talos 120
Talos 120
Ravager: 3× dark lance 125

1,502 points

Picked up a ravager tossed the bloodbrides,  added two talos and moved around the grot squads. My real question now is: do I have the mobility to get the grot squads into play. I've dabbled in orks enough to know how much foot slogging sucks. I only have one WWP, does it go with the talos or one small squad of grotesques?

Mandrakes are the new bait because infiltrate might be useful in grabbing early maelstrom objectives. Why the hell do we not have more infiltrate and outflank options. it seems like quintessential DE.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Sat Jun 11 2016, 17:39

You're over points again. Any tournament would turn your list away. You need to be UNDER 1500, not just slightly above it. So if something is making you 2 points over and the cheapest upgrade you have is 5 points, you're just going to have to be 3 points under. Thems the breaks. That's how the points system works.

So, that said, this is what I'd do with your list:

Make your grots + haemonculus a grotesquerie if you didn't already plan on it.
Drop the mandrakes +36 pts
Drop the webway portal +35 pts
Drop the Talos +120 pts

Pay for 2 raiders with night shields -140 pts
Upgrade 1 grot to an aberration w/agoniser(Succubus goes here) -35 pts
Give your Haemonculus the Vexator Mask -10 pts
Pay your 2 point overage -2pts

That makes your new TOTAL: 1496

Now you just put your grots in raiders, jink any time their shot at, and flat out 30" across the table turn 1. That should position them for a turn 2 charge.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Mon Jun 13 2016, 02:00

@Amheir-ka wrote:
Thanks for the reality check

No worries, only a pleasure to help a fellow Commorite Smile

@Amheir-ka wrote:
Haemonculus: Scissorhand; webway portal 115

This guy can be really good, as the WWP allows for some clutch plays, and he gives the extra boost to PfP. But, remember it comes in on turn two at the absolute earliest, so if he's going with anyone who wants to get into close combat, it's a turn 3 charge at best. If you don't roll well for reserves on turn 2, then you have to wait even longer.

I've had the most success when my WWPs are used for a fairly durable shooting unit. So I tend to  WWP in a big bomb of Sslyth & Medusae in a Raider, and mow down anything close by. They're not cheap to buy though, so definitely consider creating your own conversions for them.

@Amheir-ka wrote:
5 Kabalite Warriors 40
Venom: splinter cannon 65

Perfecto  cheers

@Amheir-ka wrote:
5 Wyches: Hekatrix (agoniser, haywire grenades) 90
Venom: splinter cannon 65

I like it. They're flimsy, sure, but their Venom still outputs the turn 1 damage it needs to, and in the mid game it can get the Agoniser into a favourable combat. I don't play Wyches, but if I ever did this would probably be what I do.

@Amheir-ka wrote:
4 Incubi: Klaivex 90
Venom: splinter cannon 65

Very similar to the above points, but crucially, these guys don't have Obsec so they're more expendable. At the same time, they they really, really like their PfP stacking up. Be careful before you commit them, and don't let their 3+ fool you. Don't be too aggressive with Incubi, use them in the mid game as a scalpel to remove an infantry unit.

As for some generic information of the rest,

- Remember the Haemonculus can't join the Talos as they're Monstrous Creature(s). So they can't use his WWP. [There is another formation which consists of a special unit of a Talos, a Cronos and Haemonculus in a single unit, but that's another story entirely.]

- Mandrakes aren't terrible at what you want them to do, but they're still pretty squishy, and in close combat they die quickly. If you know you're playing with kill points, leave them out the list.

- The Grotesques are hands down one of the best units in our codex. But they're almost exclusively played in the Grotesquerie formation, because it offers so many bonuses with few drawbacks. You are already paying for the Haemonculus (the only drawback the formation has to buy) and the Grotesques, so your choices, in my eyes, are two fold:

1) Play a Grotesquerie consisting 1 unit in a raider let by your Succubus in your regular Combined Arms Detachment, and the other unit WWPing in with the Haemy.
2) Play a Grotesquerie consisting 2 units, each in a raider. One is led by the Haemy in the formation, and the other by your Succubus in your regular Combined Arms Detachment.

- The Talos really wants a buddy. Multiple Taloi in a unit makes it so much better at area denial, multi-assaults, tanking fire from long range. Crucially, you can also allocate wounds between them in different initiative steps in close combat. Taloi have 2 formations to consider, and though they both end up costing quite a lot of point & money, they still both offer really solid extra rules and buffs to an already scary monstrous creature.

Bare in mind this is all just food for thought. Your list isn't bad as such, but you may find yourself frustrated with your Grots if they don't have Raiders, because they might not make it to close combat early enough (footslogging or WWPing) to influence the game.

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Amheir-ka
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Mon Jun 13 2016, 19:14

I appreciate the help. This is a difficult codex to navigate without spamming so the hints are really leading to some clarity.

@BetraytheWorld

Screw the rules, I play AoS style now!! Haha, no just kidding. I'd never do something as silly as bring an over point list to a tournament and expect to play. Getting my feet wet with a new army will be with friends who don't mind me being point or two over and vice versa.

Putting Grots in the raiders is perfect and a good spot for the characters. initially the succubus was going with the incubi but this is much better. I'm not sold on the upgrades but we'll see where the points fall.

@hydranixx

I was not aware the haeme couldn't jump in with two talos, I'm not used to dealing with monstrous creature rules but that alters my plan. Makes sense now why people like the Dark Artisan formation so much.

In future I'd like to try the 20 man warrior squad with splinter cannons using a using a wwp to jump in and give someone a bad day but that's for another list. Using it for assault can seems risky with smaller units.

I'll rewrite tonight and try to fit it all in. Again, great advice both of you. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Mon Jun 13 2016, 20:52

Quote :
Screw the rules, I play AoS style now!!

No,no - AoS style is - stick the needle in your opponents lower back sublty, if he screamed - all your units get +1 to Power from Pain chart. Discard the bonus if he throw your Raider at you, you've been raided and thus cannot benefit from bonus.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Mon Jun 13 2016, 22:32

@Amheir-ka wrote:
Getting my feet wet with a new army will be with friends who don't mind me being point or two over and vice versa.

I don't believe in practicing bad habits. If you'd like to play in tournaments, playing in a format that is forgiving of points overrages doesn't prepare you for that, at all.

Further, I personally view listbuilding as a skill, so I wouldn't be happy with my opponent being over in points, because my lists NEVER would be. Admittedly, it's a skill that is easy to counterfeit(at least up to mediocrity), since you can netlist, but it's a skill nonetheless, and I think the greatest listbuilders in the competitive scene refrain from posting their lists on public forums online. So basically, people who netlist aren't getting "the best" lists. They're just getting the "Average" competitive lists.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Tue Jun 14 2016, 05:40

Succubus: The Armour of Misery; archite glaive; haywire grenades 115
Haemonculus: Vexator Mask, Scissorhand 80

5 Kabalite Warriors 40
Venom: splinter cannon 65
5 Wyches: Hekatrix (agoniser; haywire grenades) 90
Venom: splinter cannon 65

3 Grotesques: Aberration (scissorhand) 125
Raider: dark lance 60
4 Incubi: Klaivex 90
Venom: splinter cannon 65
3 Grotesques: Aberration (scissorhand) 125
Raider: dark lance 60

6 Reavers: 2× cluster caltrops 126
5 Scourges: 4× haywire blaster 120

Talos: twin-linked haywire blaster 130
Talos: twin-linked haywire blaster 130

1,496 points

Here we go, under buy plenty. Keeps my remaining shopping/ painting list pretty small. I just need 1 more raider, 2 venoms, 2 boxes of crypt horrors and a talos.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Wed Jun 15 2016, 01:05

I'm sure you're going to hate me, but...I see that agoniser on the Hekatrix, and I just think about how much better it would be on the aberration instead. That'd also give you just a point shy of paying for an agoniser on the second aberration, for which you could drop a dark lance that will probably never get used anyhow. This is what I'd do:

Drop the agoniser from the hekatrix. +25 points
Drop a dark lance from 1 grotesques raider +5 points
Drop both scissorhands +20 points

Buy 2 agonisers for your aberrations -50 points

I'd probably trim a little more fat even, personally, but I've been accused of making things hyper-efficient in a way that seems excessive by women in my life, so I'll stop there unless asked for more.

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Amheir-ka
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Wed Jun 15 2016, 17:22

My issue with the agonizes is I'm stuck at AP3 vs scissor hand where I have the potential for AP2. Now I know it's not consistent by any stretch of the imagination but with the rerolls from poison coming in most of the time it could pan out well.

For your sanity I will magnetize my grot arms for some weapon exchanges. Right now I happen to have a bad power sword taste in my mouth but that could change.

I agree with you on pulling the dark lances off of their raides and adding enhanced aether sails instead of the agonizer business. Moving 36" will give me the ability to get just about anywhere I want to and out of LOS for an assault the following turn.

Pretty confidant in this list even without hyper-efficiency, my FLGS does not have an uber competitive meta. Our tournaments are more like an excuse to play three games of 40k in a day so I do like some marbleization in my list. You gents have shown me the gristle wonderfully.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying really hard to find a place for wyches   Thu Jun 16 2016, 15:23

@Amheir-ka wrote:

Pretty confidant in this list even without hyper-efficiency, my FLGS does not have an uber competitive meta.

Cool, in that case, Good luck, and let us know how you do! Very Happy

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