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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Your 8th ed rules wishlists   Mon May 30 2016, 08:05

So with the new edition rumoured to be coming, naturally we all have some things that we hope get changed. No doubt they are different from Archon to Archon though Smile

What's your 8th ed wishlist to fix 40k? The scuttlebutt is that the change could be quite radical, so don't hold back.

Mine is pretty extensive... (and I admit cribbed from some previous posts!)

Basics
- To wound chart modified with more depth; after 2+ you get an extra dice which can result in an additional wound, after 6+ you need to roll a 6 then something else.
- To wound chart expanded to S20 T20 (better accomodates super heavies etc)
- S: D removed

Multi-wound creatures/characters
- 'Crippled' condition when creature is at or below half wounds; half WS, BS, may not run or turbo boost.
- 'Critical hits'; if the number to wound is exceeded (a la a penetrating hit) then roll to crit. If successful attacker's choice of 1. -1 A 2. Remove one random weapon 3. Half movement for rest of game.

Vehicles
- Vehicles converted to T, W, Sv rather than AV, HP.
- Vehicle damage table removed
- 'No Escape' removed
- Jink to provide 5+ cover

Shooting
- Infantry and other non-vehicle models to have a limited arc of fire
-- heavy & salvo 90 degrees to front
-- rapid fire, assault and pistol 180 degrees to front
- Crossfire, if a unit takes fire from enemies on both sides then -1 to save rolls for the rest of the phase
- Units that fail a morale check to a shooting attack can choose to Go To Ground instead of running away

Snap shots
- Snap shots change to reroll successful hits (on normal BS)
-- multiple snap shot conditions (eg moving while firing a heavy weapon, shooting at a flier) prevent shooting altogether
-- blast weapons can snap shot, but the opponent may choose to force the scatter to be rerolled
-- templates may snap shoot but must reroll successful wounds

Overwatch
- Wall of death rule removed (templates fire overwatch as per snap shots)
- A unit with assault grenades may nominate an enemy unit with models within 8". Those models may not fire overwatch.

Assault
- Everyone can plant a grenade on a vehicle or MC in assault, not just one per unit
- WS chart goes to 2+/6+ not just 3+/5+
- Models that fire overwatch hit at I1 that phase


Hit me with yours!
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Your 8th ed rules wishlists   Mon May 30 2016, 08:47

TO be honest, I'm pretty happy with the current rules set.

THe only changes I would really want are probably small:

- Remove "No Escape".
- Always wound on a 6 regardless of strength and toughness.
- Skimmers harder to hit in combat.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Your 8th ed rules wishlists   Mon May 30 2016, 18:12

My wish is that they'll think outside the box for a change, and re-design the game instead of just adding another round of tweaks to a set of rules that came out in 1998.

I wish that they would look at Warlord Games' Beyond the Gates of Antares, not coincidentally designed by Rick Priestley and Alessio Cavatore. It's not too much of a leap to guess that the rules for Antares are more or less what they would have liked to do with 40K, had they been listened to instead of being sacked (because Rick is only the original creator of 40K, so what does he know).

If I were in charge of GW, which I'm not, I would beg them to come back. I would promise them raises, and creator ownership, and comfy chairs, and a dozen houris bearing jars of Pimms. Or if not, just do the usual GW thing and nick their ideas! Smile
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daveyo
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PostSubject: Re: Your 8th ed rules wishlists   Mon May 30 2016, 21:27

Change D weapons to S10..AP1..-1to invulnerable saves. Also inflicts D3 wounds or Hull points per wound. The reduced distort version same bu only 1 wound per hit.

Change sniper rule to include -1 to cover saves on precision shots, also wound at strength with 4+ as a min.

Remove the ignores cover rule...replace with the reduces cover rule...which does -1 cover saves

Also huge points overhaul with a codex errata for all forces
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Your 8th ed rules wishlists   Tue May 31 2016, 00:34

@Barking Agatha wrote:
My wish is that they'll think outside the box for a change, and re-design the game instead of just adding another round of tweaks to a set of rules that came out in 1998.

I wish that they would look at Warlord Games' Beyond the Gates of Antares, not coincidentally designed by Rick Priestley and Alessio Cavatore. It's not too much of a leap to guess that the rules for Antares are more or less what they would have liked to do with 40K, had they been listened to instead of being sacked (because Rick is only the original creator of 40K, so what does he know).

If I were in charge of GW, which I'm not, I would beg them to come back. I would promise them raises, and creator ownership, and comfy chairs, and a dozen houris bearing jars of Pimms. Or if not, just do the usual GW thing and nick their ideas! Smile

I haven't looked at Antares myself. Can you share some of the highlights?

@daveyo wrote:
Change D weapons to S10..AP1..-1to invulnerable saves. Also inflicts D3 wounds or Hull points per wound. The reduced distort version same bu only 1 wound per hit.

Change sniper rule to include -1 to cover saves on precision shots, also wound at strength with 4+ as a min.

Remove the ignores cover rule...replace with the reduces cover rule...which does -1 cover saves

Also huge points overhaul with a codex errata for all forces

It would be great to see 'Ignores Cover' recast as 'Reduces Cover', whether through a penalty or reroll. I don't mind templates removing cover, but it's silly that some gun can pick off a dude hunkered down in a trench from the other side of the board as easily as if he were doing the chicken dance in the open...

@Squidmaster wrote:
TO be honest, I'm pretty happy with the current rules set.

THe only changes I would really want are probably small:

- Remove "No Escape".
- Always wound on a 6 regardless of strength and toughness.
- Skimmers harder to hit in combat.

Having some chance for every weapon to do a wound would make gargantuan creatures less frustrating, for sure.

Vehicles currently count as WS1 if they moved, 0 if they don't - it could easily encompass more values to cover skimmers, moving flat out, etc.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Your 8th ed rules wishlists   Tue May 31 2016, 05:18

@Creeping Darkness wrote:

I haven't looked at Antares myself. Can you share some of the highlights?

Sure!

Instead of the 'you go - I go' turn of 40K, you take a number of differently coloured dice, one for each unit, and put them in a bag. Then you draw a dice from the bag, and if it's yours, you get to activate a unit. If it's your opponent's colour, they get to activate a unit. Then you draw again, and so on until all units have acted and the turn ends.

I like this because it makes you play more carefully. Instead of running out in front of a cannon in the knowledge that they won't get a chance to act before you've shot them to pieces, you have to consider that the next dice might be red instead of blue (or whatever colours you choose). You might get to activate three units in a row, or your opponent might. It makes you think carefully about the risks you take!

When you activate a unit, you can ask them to move fast, shoot well, move slower and shoot less well, lie in ambush, take cover, or gather their nerve. This works together with the way they handle Morale. Whenever you're shot at, you get a 'pin'. The more pins you have, the more shaken and confused your guys are, and the more difficult it is for them to do what you ask them. They shoot less accurately, and so on. If they get more pins on them than their not-leadership value, the unit is broken and they're out of the game.

It tends to be a lot less lethal. You usually destroy units by breaking their morale, rather than by killing every last one of them. Line-of-sight rules are very forgiving to the shootee, rather than the shooter, and everyone has a chance to 'Resist' being shot at (from armour, cover, and so on). If you're worried about one super-powerful unit, you can always concentrate your shooting on them, even if it won't kill them, just to put enough pins on them that their shooting will be poor, or even to break their morale and get rid of them.

If 40K adopted this, I think, Dark Eldar ought to have a variety of ways to put multiple pins on their enemies through terror, hallucinations, and so on. Wouldn't that be cool? On the other hand, space meringues would probably ignore the negative modifiers of pins, because they know no fear and so on.

Antares also has Reactions, a bit like Infinity but (in my opinion) better thought-out. If a unit hasn't acted in a turn, it can react to things that affect it, such as being shot at: it can shoot back, or take cover. Or if assaulted, they can run away.

On the negative side, for me, the factions are a bit samey and not very interesting. They all look like Tau, except the ones that look like the Thing from the Fantastic Four.

There's a lot more to it, obviously. You can get a free copy of the Beta rules here:

https://delivery.shopifyapps.com/-/6784416edf98f4a2/4aa4ca6487a9f7ec
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Your 8th ed rules wishlists   Tue May 31 2016, 16:30

@Barking Agatha wrote:
On the other hand, space meringues would probably ignore the negative modifiers of pins, because they know no fear and so on.

Keep in mind this is GW writing rules so if they did go with a similar system Pins would work on removing everyone but their beloved space marines because, you know, and they shall know no rules... er, I mean, and they shall know no fear. So the rule would probably state that they ignore all negative modifiers as well as not be removable from the board through pins.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Your 8th ed rules wishlists   Tue May 31 2016, 20:35

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
...and they shall know no rules...

Ha! Good one Smile
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Your 8th ed rules wishlists   Wed Jun 01 2016, 01:20

Thanks Barking Agatha, looks pretty neat. I've downloaded the rules for further investigation. I like the sound of reactions.

The different types of action and pins sound a bit like Epic 40k, which I've been fond of for a while. For what it's worth, 'they shall know no rules' (Very Happy) is represented in Epic by halving the effect of each pin (blast markers in Epic). Normally every marker stops one model from firing, and a unit is broken if there is a marker per model; for space marines its two markers to stop a model from firing, and twice as many markers as models to break them.

I really wonder if activation might be the way to go in 40k too. It would break up the 'alpha strike' model of gaming that 'I go you go' encourages, and that the game seems to have devolved to. Assaults seem the only wrinkle, because it would sure suck having to activate your unit of warriors to get beaten down by the Wraithknight that charged them... again. Epic deals with it by having all assaults decisive - the loser breaks automatically, and if its a draw you keep going until there is a loser! Not sure how that would play in 40k. Certainly sweeping advance would have to change, otherwise it's very harsh.
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PostSubject: Re: Your 8th ed rules wishlists   Wed Jul 13 2016, 12:46


Bring back aerial assault for ravagers (so full BS on moving 12 with all weapons). So fast skimmers can fire full BS when moving 12 or less with all weapons.

be able to move 12 with raider and not have to snap shot out of the vehicle with passengers (would certainly make splinter racks insanely lethal). So rules wise it would be fast, opentopped skimmer passengers fire at full BS when moving 12 or less (I can understand if they don't put this rule in xD one can only dream...)

hit skimmers on a 6+ in close combat (unless immobilised)


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PostSubject: Re: Your 8th ed rules wishlists   Thu Jul 28 2016, 03:08

This is one of many things I would want Games Workshop to update the next set of rules with, but your mention of hitting skimmers in combat made me think of it.  I feel like skimmers should function somewhat in-between how flyers function and how they function at the moment.  For instance there should be two movement modes in the same vein as how flyers operate.  One mode is faster but also "higher up" if possible (switch to the taller flying base).  In this mode you move further and but your transported models can't disembark and your shooting is less accurate.  Or you can choose to fly slow and low for transport disembarkation and better shooting at the cost of Jinking and speed.  What I am thinking of writing in my general fan rules will go something like this:

Sailing:  Minimum 12" movement, maximum 24".  Maximum of 1 pivot before and after moving and no more than 90 degrees each time.  No disembarkation or embarkation.  Emergency embarkation is painful as models suffer the fall.  Rerolling 6's to hit with shooting.  Jinking as currently stands (4+ , declare during opponent's turn).  Ground units not with the Jump, Jetbike, Jetpack, or Flying type cannot assault, and jump and jet types only in a limited manner (like a drive by but with your chainsword/hellglaive, etc.). Monstrous Creatures however attack normally in melee because they're taller.

Skimming:  how skimmers currently move and disembark/embark, normal shooting, only 6+ possible Jink save (but penalty to shooting is lighter, say only re-rolling 6's rather than Ballistic skill 1).  Melee works as it currently does.

What do you all think?

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