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Ultra Magnus
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PostSubject: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Wed May 25 2016, 19:56

Both the Archite Glaive & Demiklaives offer two modes, one that offers +1S/AP2 and the other AP3 with an additional attack. Now obviously if you are facing an AP2 foe you would use it two handed, but what about AP3 or higher? Does the additional attack beat out the increased strength value?

I decided to test it to find out.

For simplicity's sake, I assumed that all attacks were hits, so the end result will not be technically accurate in the final accounting but for comparative purposes it makes no difference.

Here is what it looks like for a Succubus against MEQ (T4 3+):

4 S4 attacks (two handed) = 2 wounds
5 S3 attacks (single handed) = 1.65 wounds

Here is what it looks like for a Klaivex against MEQ (T4 3+):

3 S4 attacks (single blade) = 1.5 Wounds
4 S3 attacks (dual wield) = 1.32

So basically across weapons, models, and cases, there is literally NO scenario that the "bonus mode" is actually an improvement. What makes it even funnier is that the Klaivex is expected to pay an additional 15 points for this "privilege".

So Archons, what did I miss? Did I goof or did GW?

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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Wed May 25 2016, 20:24

I don't think I've ever done an attack with the s3 glaive. I never understood why you would want to.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Wed May 25 2016, 20:52

What about toughness 3 enemies?

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Wed May 25 2016, 21:11

There are a couple of fringe cases where the extra attack is better, but they are so rare that you should virtually always go two handed.

Against T3 enemies for example for a Klaivex not charging, you have a choice of increasing your attack rate by 1/3 using one handed, or your wound rate by 1/2 using two handed, so two handed wins.

Some fringe cases:
Succubus with +1 S from drugs and Furious Charge attacking T3 models. Wound on two whether you go one or two handed, so extra attack is better.

Klaivex without Furious Charge attacking a T6 model. Wound on a six regardless, so the extra attack is better.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Wed May 25 2016, 22:40

Against T3 you want more attacks. Tau, Eldar, DE and IG its better against.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Wed May 25 2016, 23:20

It's actually not better against T3 normally because you'd wound T3 on 3+ with the +1S mode. Kantalla pointed out the very rare case you'd use the glaive in 1 handed mode: Against a T3 opponent when you already have furious charge and +1S from combat drugs, or otherwise have +2S from some other source.

To answer the OPs question: I always use 2h mode on a succubus, and never buy demiklaives(or incubi, for that matter). Pretty sure demiklaives were one of the 30+ things they nerfed from last codex to this one.

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Ultra Magnus
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Wed May 25 2016, 23:47

Well I feel vindicated if a bit perplexed at GW for doing these things. I guess calculators and proof readers both came out of the same budget... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Thu May 26 2016, 00:52

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Pretty sure demiklaives were one of the 30+ things they nerfed from last codex to this one.

They got hit with the nerfklaive alright. It took me a little while to notice that the +2 S had been downgraded to +1. Until then I'd been considering it. But pay points for an in-game option that I won't use? Nah.

@Ultra Magnus wrote:
Well I feel vindicated if a bit perplexed at GW for doing these things. I guess calculators and proof readers both came out of the same budget...

lol!

Back in the day they used to list 'high school maths or better' as a desirable criteria for the job of games developer. I really do wonder if that has gone by the wayside since!
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Thu May 26 2016, 08:48

I noticed I got my math wrong in my example, although the two cases where single handed is better should still be right.

For a more complete analysis:

Klaivex attacks (without the two weapon bonus) can range from 3 to 8 (Rage and max Rampage)
Succubus attacks can range from 4 to 7 (+1 A from drugs and Rage)

A bonus attack improves damage output by 1 / base attacks. So the potential improvement is at best 1/3 and worst 1/8.

The bonus for +1 S is more complex, due to the toughness of the target and required wound roll. The possible results for +1 S are either improving the dice roll to wound by one, or no change (in the fringe cases above). Assuming the dice roll is improved, the range of improvement is 1/4 for 3+ to 2+ through to doubling for 6+ to 5+, or even being able to wound when you couldn't without the bonus.

So in the fringe cases, and if a Klaivex is against a T2 target that doesn't outnumber him it is better to use one handed. In all other cases the two handed option is better.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Thu May 26 2016, 09:59

@Ultra Magnus wrote:
Both the Archite Glaive & Demiklaives offer two modes, one that offers +1S/AP2 and the other AP3 with an additional attack. Now obviously if you are facing an AP2 foe you would use it two handed, but what about AP3 or higher? Does the additional attack beat out the increased strength value?

I decided to test it to find out.

For simplicity's sake, I assumed that all attacks were hits, so the end result will not be technically accurate in the final accounting but for comparative purposes it makes no difference.

Missing out the hit chance does make a difference in the specific cases of the models that are capable of wielding the weapons in question (ie, Succubus and Klaivex). They have differing WS and, more importantly, differing numbers of attacks. Taking these into account the 1H version is still generally inferior but there are a few cases in which it is equal to or even superior to the 2H version.

Specifically, a Klaivex vs GEQ causes the same number of unsaved wounds with either version.

Against a MC (I've used a Carnifex as my target) the 1H version is actually superior for both the Succubus and Klaivex as the increased S and AP make no difference when you already need 6 to hit and are ignoring their armour.

This however is more than offset by the 1H version's performance against TEQ, where it is vastly inferior to the 2H style.

So, in general you will want to use 2H vs any target other than a model with 3+ (or worse) armour that you need a 6 to wound even 2H.

In other words, the 1H version is pretty poor. So, as an experiment I added Shred to the 1H profile. Suddenly, it is the clear winner against everything except 2+ armour, which I think makes much more sense.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Thu May 26 2016, 14:28

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Specifically, a Klaivex vs GEQ causes the same number of unsaved wounds with either version.

This actually isn't 100% accurate. Only if the Klaivex isn't outnumbered by GEQ while using the 1H profile does it edge out the 2h profile, and even then only by a hair, as shown below. As a note, they'll almost always be outnumbered. I wouldn't generally run Incubi in units greater than 3-4 for just that reason.

Klaivex w/1-handed: 6 Attacks>3.96 hits>1.98 wounds
Klaivex w/2-handed: 5 Attacks>3.30 hits>2.18 wounds

And if we don't assume the Klaivex is outnumbered:

Klaivex w/1-handed: 4 Attacks>2.64 hits>1.32 wounds
Klaivex w/2-handed: 3 Attacks>1.98 hits>1.31 wounds

I think the primary point of this conversation is that, in the current codex, demiklaives are basically never worth the 15 point purchase. That's nearly the price of another Incubi, who would be of far greater utility. Last edition, I used demiklaives(although I didn't do an in-depth analysis of their utility). The nerf from last edition to this edition takes away any inclination I had to purchase it.

Last edition, demiklaives added +2S if used together, or +2 attacks if used seperately. This was a pretty huge nerf.





EDITED for spelling typo.

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Last edited by BetrayTheWorld on Thu May 26 2016, 15:30; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Thu May 26 2016, 14:33

Ah yes, I forgot the Klaivex gets Rampage. That would mean the 1H profile is equal or better only in one specific circumstance, that of an opponent with Toughness exactly 3 points higher than the Klaivex's Strength and with an armour save of 3+ or worse.

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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Thu May 26 2016, 18:15

Whelp I think our catalog of "things that look like they kinda should do something but really don't" just got a new member. I will just scoooch the Djinn Blade over to make room on the shelf...

Getting kinda crowded up there.... :/
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Thu May 26 2016, 21:28

@Count Adhemar wrote:
That would mean the 1H profile is equal or better only in one specific circumstance, that of an opponent with Toughness exactly 3 points higher than the Klaivex's Strength and with an armour save of 3+ or worse.
Or if you were wounding on 2+ anyway (say attacking GEQ with Hammerhand) Wink

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Sat May 28 2016, 17:11

@Ultra Magnus wrote:
Whelp I think our catalog of "things that look like they kinda should do something but really don't" just got a new member. I will just scoooch the Djinn Blade over to make room on the shelf...

Getting kinda crowded up there.... :/
Well the codex is hardly new, we've all known Demiklaives were useless for 18 months now.

The only model where going one handed might be of use is Drazhar since he's S4 base, but even then I don't think boosting a potential 8 attacks for 9 attacks in exchange for going from S5 to S4 really makes it a good option, particularly since the types of enemies Drazhar is likely to take on will have 2+ armour.
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Sat May 28 2016, 18:45

You buy the weapons for the AP 2, I think. While you'd never choose to put yourself in the situations where the extra attack would be the best choice, normally, you might get boxed in.

It's like Lysander's Iron Halo in 5th or 6th. You're only going to use it in one instance ever, but if you do, it's nice to have.
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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Sun May 29 2016, 05:12

@Jimsolo wrote:
You buy the weapons for the AP 2, I think.  While you'd never choose to put yourself in the situations where the extra attack would be the best choice, normally, you might get boxed in.  

It's like Lysander's Iron Halo in 5th or 6th.  You're only going to use it in one instance ever, but if you do, it's nice to have.

I agree. But klaives already have AP2, so there's basically no reason to ever pay 15 points for a demiklaive.

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PostSubject: Re: So who is bad at math, me or GW?   Sun May 29 2016, 09:09

@Imateria wrote:
The only model where going one handed might be of use is Drazhar...
Nope - not worth it for Drazhar either, unless he has Furious Charge and attacking T3 models. Or was attacking something T7, or T8 with Furious Charge.

The best case for single handed would be Drazhar not charging, and no Rampage, where single handed would give you 25% extra damage. Against T3, Drazhar would get +25% from two handed. Single handed gets more chances for bonus attacks, but two handed makes them more powerful. Any other case two handed is better.

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