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 Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Thu Jun 09 2016, 07:37

Rending isnt tho, and it fits the fluff very well.

Look at Daemonettes of Slaanesh 9pts, +1 WS and Attack but no Shooting
Daemon (5+ invul at all times), Deep Strike, Fear, Fleet, Rending, run an additional 3"

1pt cheaper, same attacks, +1 WS, Rending, they dont have Drugs, but do have 3" run, Fear, DS and a 5++ always vs a 4++ in melee


There are pros and cons to both, but you get my point.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Thu Jun 09 2016, 14:19

It's true that daemonettes don't have any ranged weapons, but wyches aren't exactly throwing out a lot of dakka either.  At best it's usually a few pot shots and a plasma grenade before a charge.

After the fenris book damonettes got more playable by gaining things like a re-roll to daemon instability, a +1/-1 modifier to the warp storm table, daemonic corruption (holding an objective without leaving a unit on it) and formation rules like.

Beguiling Chimes: Enemy units that are locked in combat
with any units from a Flayertroupe reduce their Weapon Skill
and Initiative characteristics by 1 (to a minimum of 1).

Funny that even if wyches were upgraded to WS 5, they'd still often get bumped down while facing their closest analogue.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Thu Jun 09 2016, 19:23

Yeah that would work.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Thu Jun 09 2016, 21:25

I havent read this whole thread yet but I have thought the easiest way to fix wyches since the 5th ed codex was to give them the 3.5 edition wych weapons back with the 4th edition ruling on how they worked.  (5th edition faq ruined them but they were still better than they are now.)

for those of you who didnt play the old pamphlet, their wych weapons cut the WS of anyone whos strength was lass than half of the wyches in 1/2.  In most cases anyone with ST 3-5 was cut and in the case that you had +1 Strength you cut it until they hit 8.  

This was huge.  You hit most people on 3s and most people still hit you on 4s but it dropped characters who might hit you on 3s or better down to 4.  

Personally I would give basic wyches ws 5 and their unity hex 6.  Bloodbrides get 6 and their syren 7.  their BS could stay 4.  

I would also like it if wyches were a flat minus 1 to hit.  (i know people hate modifiers for some reason) you hit on a 3, nope its a 4.  

I would also start them at 3 base attacks.  Make them death by 1000 cuts.  

Finally you need a way to deliver them.  I suggest horror/terrofex grenades.  Cause units to take a leadership test a with a negative -1 modifier for every model hit under the 3 inch template.  Personally I think it should go through know no fear but not fearless.

I have been playing DE since 2005 so I have bunches of ideas but right now even the best idea starts with NERF Craftworlders
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Thu Jun 09 2016, 22:57

WS vs WS is modifiers already (modified from the chart) so being WS5 will help against MANY things, other Melee units they should be equal, a Wych shouldnt be insane that not being swung at, that why they have a "dodge".

Syren could be WS 6 but I dont think Hex should.

Hex should be like Vet units in Marines where every model can be equipped with good weapons.

DE doesnt have to be on par with Eldar, But we should at least be close :/ Just a different play style

I think DE and Eldar like this: If Eldar are SM, then DE are BA/SW so we should have the same basic gear/vehicles with our own spin on them and some different units/vehicles/rules. And thats why Im now playing Corsairs.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 01:48

@Sarkesian wrote:

What about something like: On a Natural Roll of a 6, Wyches ignore armor saves of MC.

This doesn't let them wound the MC to begin with, though. That's what rending does. Let's put this in perspective for the folks worried about them being able to hurt vehicles with rending:

If you gave wyches rending, the primary difference would be that they COULD hurt vehicles in combat, on a rare roll. This simply puts them in line with all S4 models that can ALREADY hurt most vehicles in CC on the same roll of a 6. The difference is that S4 models hurt all sorts of other things easier on rolls that AREN'T a 6. So, there is legitimate debate to be had as to whether S4 normal attacks or S3 rending attacks are overall better.

The answer to that debate is that it likely depends on the target. Against TEQ or MCs, the rending will obviously be superior, while against GEQ and possibly even MEQ, the higher strength might be better.

But my overall point is that rending isn't OP. It's simply niche, and situationally very useful. It would be considered crappy on a S8 T8 Non-Independent character that had 2 base attacks. While on a cheap enough infantry model with 3 base attacks it'd be considered very powerful.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 10:02

@amishprn86 wrote:
DE doesnt have to be on par with Eldar, But we should at least be close :/ Just a different play style

Definitely.

@amishprn86 wrote:
And thats why Im now playing Corsairs.

Definitely.

@amishprn86 wrote:
I think DE and Eldar like this: If Eldar are SM, then DE are BA/SW so we should have the same basic gear/vehicles with our own spin on them and some different units/vehicles/rules.

Definitely not.



Dark Eldar and Eldar cannot be compared to Space Marines chapters, neither on the table top nor in the fluff, and this is why I think so:

Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands... They have unique tactics, views, methods, and beliefs. But universally, they serve die for the same Emperor, they share a common set of weaponry with one another and they work (albeit grudgingly) to the same end.

The two space elf factions are completely different in almost every single comparable way; infrastructure, community, psyche, psychic tolerance, aspirations, reasons to actually fight an enemy, just to name a few. I can't see any reason why they would share vehicles, weapons, armour. Kabals barely share with each other.



As for the topic at hand, for Wyches... I like the idea of them using a different statistic than their strength when they roll to wound, but that becomes a little complicated for a basic 10 pt model.

Perhaps rending is the wiser call here. Rending solves their issues related to puncturing armour and hurting tougher models. It keeps the model fairly simple, lean and focused. If people are worried about Wyches suddenly massacring entire tank battalions, their version of Rending could simply roll d3 - 1 instead of the regular d3. Done.

Further to this, I think they either need their 4++ vs overwatch or be 8pts per model rather than 10pts.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 11:02

@hydranixx

B.c they all came from the same place, a DE Jetbike should be fairly similar, same as in Guns/Arm/Cost, yes keep them different, there are Dark Lances and Bright lances, I mean more things like that for Codex balance stand point, Some weapons are 5pts difference between the books but do the same thing :/

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 11:09

Personally I feel DE technology should be, indeed has to be, superior to craftworld tech. The craftworlds rely heavily on their psychic abilities in pretty much every aspect of their existence but the Dark Kin are forced to rely solely on technology (if they don't want a slapped wrist and stern telling off from Vect). We know they can steal planets and capture suns. Who knows what else they are capable of?

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 11:17

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Personally I feel DE technology should be, indeed has to be, superior to craftworld tech. The craftworlds rely heavily on their psychic abilities in pretty much every aspect of their existence but the Dark Kin are forced to rely solely on technology (if they don't want a slapped wrist and stern telling off from Vect). We know they can steal planets and capture suns. Who knows what else they are capable of?

Nvm thought of it that way. Then Wyches weapons should be EVEN BETTER WHAHAHAHAHA

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 12:38

@amishprn86 wrote:


DE doesnt have to be on par with Eldar, But we should at least be close :/ Just a different play style


Either No one should be at the eldar's current power level or EVERYONE should be...but this crap where certain books like eldar, tau, and space marines are so far above everyone is crap.

Eldar is more powerful now then chaos was in 3.5 and thats bad...I played against the khorne demon bomb, I played against the 1st turn assault from night lords raptors (Which iMO was worse than the iron warriors everyone talks about). I could beat chaos with DE, (it involved sniper squads for 100 points, wyches tying units up, the sucubus might take out a few models, and then incubi rolling in with a dracon and wiping stuff out. the archon would be on his bikes taking out stuff himself)
i see eldar or tau now and i say not interested...
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 15:40

Tau actually isn't a top tier army right now. There was a study done on this recently showing where Tau armies generally placed in major tournaments, and Tau were pretty heavily middle of the pack. The top tier armies were: Space Marines, Eldar, Chaos Daemons, and Necrons if I recall correctly.

It's possible that they appear OP from a DE perspective because they counter all the things we rely on to protect our fragile models: Speed, Cover, and FnP saves. So they're the scissors to our paper in a way, But they get beat by lots of other rocks.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 15:45

I suspect the massive kicking that the ITC gave them also plays a part in their tournament results. When the TO decides that you can't use half your abilities it's bound to have an impact.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 17:11

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I suspect the massive kicking that the ITC gave them also plays a part in their tournament results. When the TO decides that you can't use half your abilities it's bound to have an impact.

Weeeeellllll, not really HALF of their abilities. But certainly 2 big ones. I recall that 1 was just a formation bonus that let them all fire together for extra BS and special rules, but they ruled that the special rules part didn't work, right? What was the other one?

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 17:53

The others were mainly to nerf the piranha formation. ITC ruled the piranhas couldn't enter reserves on the same turn they arrive and also that their rearm and refuel ability didn't do what it said on the tin. But it was mainly the Coordinated Firepower nerf that caused the most consternation. I don't necessarily disagree that the nerfs were needed but I do wonder why the Tau were singled out but other stuff, like wraithknights, went unaltered.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 18:15

Wraithknights didn't go unaltered. They modified the D weapon table for ranged weapons so that ranged weapons could no longer get a "6" result. This was a direct nerf to wraithknights, but was made as a general modification to ranged D in order to future-proof their ruling against other ranged GCs or superheavies that might come out. Turns out, said ruling also pre-emptively nerfed the Tau GC when it came out too.

Wraithknights aren't actually all that insane, at this point. In the midst of Massed grav weapons, Imperial Knights and Tau Stormsurges, wraithknights aren't super special. They're similarly priced to IK and Stormsurges. If you put 2 scatter lasers on them, they're 325 points, 40 points less than a stormsurge who has significantly higher firepower.

That said, I think IK and GCs in general are pushing the game in an uncomfortable direction, for me. When designing lists, GCs always have to be a consideration, and there simply aren't enough options to deal with them, short of taking your own IK or GC for a lot of armies.

I don't like being forced to constantly consider these GCs when building lists. It takes a lot of the fun and variety out of list-building, because so many lists that previously would have been competitive simply are not when you factor in the GC rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 19:17

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:

Keep in mind that Wyches aren't elite fighters, they are just the cannon fodder of the Cults.

I'm pretty sure the fluff presents it as the exact opposite of this, that wyches are the premier hand-to-hand combatants of commoragh.

Just because they're a troops choice doesn't make them fodder. Not every "troop" needs to be fodder, just like not every army should HAVE fodder. Eldar shouldn't, really, based on their fluff, though guardians tend to fit that bill. Not that anyone really uses them.

The premier hand-to-hand combatants of Commoragh are the Succubi. The best of the rest, the Hekatarii Bloodbrides, are described in the fluff as their hand-picked personal meat shields. And the "lesser" Hakatarii use common Wyches in pretty much the same way: They are supporting cast, who fight for their lives on a daily basis, while the true stars of the arena pick only the most glorious battles for themselves.
Wyches who survive long enough to master more exquisite weapons and flashy techniques and manage to kill more or stronger enemies than the rest become Hakatarii themselves. Generally, a Wych's life means to become Succubus or die trying. But the majority is unlikely to survive even their first battle.
Fortunately for the Dark Eldar, the Haemonculi can pretty much mass-produce Halfborn, so unlike the Craftworlds, the Cults and Kabals never run out of fresh recruits.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 19:51

@Rokuro wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:

Keep in mind that Wyches aren't elite fighters, they are just the cannon fodder of the Cults.

I'm pretty sure the fluff presents it as the exact opposite of this, that wyches are the premier hand-to-hand combatants of commoragh.

Just because they're a troops choice doesn't make them fodder. Not every "troop" needs to be fodder, just like not every army should HAVE fodder. Eldar shouldn't, really, based on their fluff, though guardians tend to fit that bill. Not that anyone really uses them.

The premier hand-to-hand combatants of Commoragh are the Succubi. The best of the rest, the Hekatarii Bloodbrides, are described in the fluff as their hand-picked personal meat shields. And the "lesser" Hakatarii use common Wyches in pretty much the same way: They are supporting cast, who fight for their lives on a daily basis, while the true stars of the arena pick only the most glorious battles for themselves.
Wyches who survive long enough to master more exquisite weapons and flashy techniques and manage to kill more or stronger enemies than the rest become Hakatarii themselves. Generally, a Wych's life means to become Succubus or die trying. But the majority is unlikely to survive even their first battle.
Fortunately for the Dark Eldar, the Haemonculi can pretty much mass-produce Halfborn, so unlike the Craftworlds, the Cults and Kabals never run out of fresh recruits.

I'm sorry, that's just not how they're represented at all. Here is an exerpt of fluff about wyches pulled from our last codex:

Codex, 5th Ed. wrote:

"Gladiatorial fighters and athletes without equal, the Wyches are true artistes of physical combat. Most of the Hekatarii, as the wyches call themselves, are female, for females find it easier to attain the pinnacle of poise and grace that their craft demands. When outnumberexd in battle, wyches will roll, backflip, and pirouette out of harm's way, stabbing through visors and neck-joints, slicing open a throat here, and piercing a heart there. They flow around the blows of their opponents like water, their expressions of aloof disdain melting away into savage smiles as they feed upon each fresh scream of pain."

The 7th ed codex says a condensed version of the same thing, but adds this line, further reinforcing the idea that they should have rending:
Codex 7th Ed wrote:
"Furthermore, all Wyches are skilled knifefighters who can kill a foe many times their size with the smallest of blades."

Not only do they describe wyches as expert combatants without peer, but they aptly describe their methods in such a way as to almost exactly be describing the fluff of the rending special rule.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 20:02

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 20:20

Codex, 5th Ed. wrote:

"Gladiatorial fighters and athletes without equal, the Wyches are true artistes of physical combat. Most of the Hekatarii, as the wyches call themselves, are female, for females find it easier to attain the pinnacle of poise and grace that their craft demands. When outnumberexd in battle, wyches will roll, backflip, and pirouette out of harm's way, stabbing through visors and neck-joints, slicing open a throat here, and piercing a heart there. They flow around the blows of their opponents like water, their expressions of aloof disdain melting away into savage smiles as they feed upon each fresh scream of pain."

The codices describe almost every unit like that (with the exception of Gretchins, Nurglings and Conscripts).
A Wych may be awesome by average human standards, but in the reality of the 40k universe, she is just a faceless grunt amongst thousands of others. Not everyone can be a champion after all, especially not in Commorragh.

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The 7th ed codex says a condensed version of the same thing, but adds this line, further reinforcing the idea that they should have rending:
Codex 7th Ed wrote:
"Furthermore, all Wyches are skilled knifefighters who can kill a foe many times their size with the smallest of blades."

Not only do they describe wyches as expert combatants without peer, but they aptly describe their methods in such a way as to almost exactly be describing the fluff of the rending special rule.

Not saying that Wyches shouldn't have Rending, or Bladestorm at least.
Special rules sure would reflect their abilities better than increased stats.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Fri Jun 10 2016, 21:24

@Rokuro wrote:

Not saying that Wyches shouldn't have Rending

Great, then we're in agreement!

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Sat Jun 11 2016, 02:05

@amishprn86 wrote:
@hydranixx

B.c they all came from the same place, a DE Jetbike should be fairly similar, same as in Guns/Arm/Cost, yes keep them different, there are Dark Lances and Bright lances, I mean more things like that for Codex balance stand point, Some weapons are 5pts difference between the books but do the same thing :/

On the tabletop, yeah a Dark Lance and a Bright Lance share the same profile and same cost in many instances. But that's only one example, and even then that doesn't mean they're have the same origin. A Chaos cultist autogun and Imperial Guard lasgun are exactly the same profile too, though they're very different in what they actually shoot, how they reload, how they're manufactured and how they're maintained.

Eldar & CW equipment doesn't come from the same place, so I'm sorry but you're wrong.

Craftworlds, Commorites:
 

If we were to consider the other 3 'cousins' of the Eldar family:
Corsairs/Harlequins/Exodites:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar: WS5/BS5 justified?   Sat Jun 11 2016, 16:06

@hydranixx wrote:

I don't know much about Exodites, to be honest. I know that they live in harmony with nature on the worlds they inhabit, and they're probably still pretty decent psykers. I don't think they even bother creating things for war since they're so chill all the time.
The Path of the Outcast book gives a good look at the Exodites. It shows them as being very low tech, quarrying stone for housing and forging steel for swords (one was described as being exquisitley made but still just a regular sword so not much use against most armour in the 41st Millenium) but also using laser weaponry like Lasblasters, Laser Lances and Bright Lances. I suspect the laser weapons came from Craftworlds as it didn't seem like they had the ability to make them themselves. They also seem to have abondoned their psychic abilities for the same reason as their technology, though since the World Spirit needs to be maintained I would imagine their is at least one in each tribe thats a fully trained psyker.

And of course they ride into battle on dinosaurs.

I wouldn't describe them as being chill though, what little fluff their is, and most of it is quite old, describes them as being rather trible and happy to raid each others dinosaur herds.
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